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Topic: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

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  1. #1

    Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    Here's another attempt to resolve the ongoing issues I've found since my first days of using Garritan libraries together with Finale and Sonar.

    The issues surrounding Garritan's use of CC7 for modulation and CC1 for channel volume which are the opposite to the MIDI standard (CC1 = modulation and CC7 = Channel Volume).

    I prepare my scores in Finale using Garritan libraries and use the 'Notation' set of instruments so everything plays happily together. I then save my scores as MIDI files to open in Sonar and continue using the 'Notation' sets of instruments to keep everything just as it was in my Finale scores.

    So far, so good ... UNTIL ... I try balancing and mixing in Sonar using sonar's sliders. When I playback in Sonar all my dilligent work flies out the window and Sonar's controls are totally overridden.

    My solution has been to delete all CC7 data in Sonar which does result in restoring control back to Sonar. The problem is that this also removes what would/should have been the Human touch of subtle volume variations that CC1 gives, the gentle movement of the mod wheel. I then have to resort to everything I can, fair means and foul, to try to impart the Human touch back to my Sonar files.

    My options:

    (1) In Finale disable the Human Playback feature. This is not a good option. Apart from not solving the problem completely in Sonar, I loose a huge amount of score information and interpretation that I have put into my score. This is something, perhaps, only a Finale user, can appreciate.

    (2) Use the 'Standard' set of instruments both in Finale and Sonar. Again, not a good option. I don't think that Garritan Libraries and Finale would work together fully and in the manner they are designed.

    (3) In Sonar, go with CC7 and Aria and forget Sonar's controls. No way, for me Sonar takes over the baton. Either I have to find a way around this or else just continue to live with it.

    (4) Remap CC1 and CC7 in Sonar. This sounds good for me and, possibly, the way to go. It seems to me that if I can do this then CC7 will become CC1 and that mod wheel will a-flutter again just like it should and the Channel volume will be back under Sonar's control. Problem is I haven't yet found a way to remap these in Sonar. Also, I'm not even sure if doing this will cause any other problems .. or even if it would work at all.

    I would really appreciate any help with this.

    Thanks.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  2. #2

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    Michael, I am not sure I understand the situation you are having. CC7 is a volume setting (slider on the ARIA) for each instrument in Finale and Sonar. CC1 is modulation which has been changed to volume (or expression) control. When I save a Finale score to midi, I first goto "Plug-ins" and select Playback/ apply Human Playback. There will be a couple of pop-up questions that you should answer with "Yes". Then save the file as a midi file. When you look at the midi file in Sonar, it will have CC1 doing all that CC7 originally did. Of course this will be true only if you

    1) set Human Preferences for "Dynamics & Volume" in the drop down box for "Dynamic Approach for Sustaining for Attack" to Modulation (CC#1) = Velocity for Attack

    2) check the box for Optimize Attacks for Garritan Libraries

    At least that is how it works for me and my Human Playback is intact. All the CC's do what they should. I usually check to remove any CC7 indicators that sometimes stay at the beginning of a midi track.

    I hope this is a help. It can be confusing getting the information out of Finale into a midi file and finally into Sonar.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  3. #3

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    I wish I had more time to reply - RichR has spelled it out though, Michael. You have those two controls exactly the opposite of what they are. In Garritan, CC7 is just for channel volume, CC1, 11 or 2 is for playing instruments with volume control - it's the only way to get the timbre change from low to bright. - In Sonar, the volume sliders in the tracker headers of MIDI tracks control the sliders in ARIA unless you right click in the Sonar channel strip to disable the control. It's easier to just use Sonar's controls. That's all you need to do. Then perform your instruments with your mod wheel or expression pedal.--- Michael--Where have you been all this time?! LOl--

    Randy

  4. #4

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    Hello again, Michael - I was on my way out the door when I saw your post last night. The quick reply I typed wasn't really specifically responsive enough.

    But when I said RichR has key to what you need in his reply, I see for sure this morning that he really does. As he explains, since it's CC1 that Garritan uses for instrument volume control, that's what you need to program in that dialogue for Human Playback. He's telling Finale to use CC1 for volume, and he's checking that "Optimize Attacks for Garritan Libraries" box. Exported MIDI files then play back as they should in Sonar.

    It does seem that the way to optimize Finale for Garritan could be a bit more straight forward, automatic even. But at least there is a way to get things working right.

    In case it's helpful, there's more in your post I want to go over:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    ...The issues surrounding Garritan's use of CC7 for modulation and CC1 for channel volume which are the opposite to the MIDI standard (CC1 = modulation and CC7 = Channel Volume)...
    Maybe you made some typos when you wrote that, but I think it's clear now that you have the MIDI controllers confused. Garritan doesn't use CC7 for modulation. CC1 (or 11 or 2) controls the dynamic volume of an instrument's performance. CC7 controls the usually static levels of the sliders in ARIA's mixer. -- I'll add that as far as actual modulation (vibrato control) is concerned, Garritan uses AfterTouch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    ...I prepare my scores in Finale using Garritan libraries and use the 'Notation' set of instruments so everything plays happily together. I then save my scores as MIDI files to open in Sonar and continue using the 'Notation' sets of instruments to keep everything just as it was in my Finale scores...
    My understanding is that the only difference between the Notation instruments and the regular ones, is that the Notation versions use CC68 for legato/sustain instead of CC64. Otherwise - they're the same. In the newer Garritan Libraries, like Instant Orchestra, there are no longer two separate sample sets - One set works in both notation and DAW software.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    ...So far, so good ... UNTIL ... I try balancing and mixing in Sonar using sonar's sliders. When I playback in Sonar all my diligent work flies out the window and Sonar's controls are totally overridden.My solution has been to delete all CC7 data in Sonar which does result in restoring control back to Sonar. The problem is that this also removes what would/should have been the Human touch of subtle volume variations that CC1 gives, the gentle movement of the mod wheel. I then have to resort to everything I can, fair means and foul, to try to impart the Human touch back to my Sonar files....
    OK, so that's what RichR is talking about - You need to set CC1 for volume control in Finale. Then all will playback the same in Sonar as it does in Finale, with all nuances.

    But what you've said in that last quote seems to indicate a misunderstanding of MIDI Controllers in general. You're saying that Sonar's controls are overridden by the data in your MIDI file import from Finale. Well - yes, that will always be true. MIDI Controllers are controlling the soft synth. If there's data in a file, that's what will be read and applied. It's not a matter of Sonar being "overridden"--Sonar is just reading data and using it. In the case of your Finale files, they have all this CC7 data which is controlling the sliders in ARIA, so that's right that you wouldn't be able to do new balancing work with that data still in the file. You see?

    The problem there is, as RichR said, that you're using the wrong controllers in Finale. Once you have CC1 controlling the volume, which is the only way to get timbres changing according to volume levels in Garritan, then you'll have what you want. Then, with no CC7 data in the file, you'll be able to balance the instruments the way you want, using the MIDI volume sliders in Sonar to set the balances of instruments in ARIA.

    The rest of your post is about all the hassles you're having because of using the wrong CCs.

    Hope your thread clears it all up for you now!

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    Before you export the Finale file as MIDI, you need to run the "Apply Human Playback" plug-in as Rich said, or HP data will not be exported correctly with the MIDI file. Try opening the Finale file, running the APPLY HP plug-in, then save as MIDI.

    HP **SEEMS** to use a combination of CC7 (channel volume) and CC1 (mod wheel) to deal with dynamics. Unfortunately, many parts of HP are "black boxes;" if we could know a bit more about how HP worked, we'd probably have fewer issues and better playback.
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  6. #6

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    First, a hearty 'Thank you' to Rich, Randy and Jim.

    I have followed Rich's suggestions to select CC1 in Finale's Human Playback; the 'Optimise for Garritan Libraries was already selected. I also tried the plugin to apply HP to the score although my method has been to playback the score before saving as a MIDI file.

    In Sonar, CC1 is now applied and, as Randy said, after deleting the few CC7 dotted here and there I am now able to use Sonar's sliders and, I agree, that this is much better.

    I also agree with Jim on Human Playback seemingly using CC1 and CC7 and how changing Hp's defaults might affect other things.

    I noticed in Sonar that Aria's Mod Wheel does now have subtle movement. As a further observation, the sliders in Dan's videos of Digital Performer reflect these subtle movements. By comparison, the sliders in Sonar's Console View for my file are static'. There is no movement at all.

    I hope Dan doesn't mind me linking to one of his videos here so people can see what I mean.

    Move the video on to around 07:22 and watch those sliders.

    See one of Dan's videos showing slider movements here.

    Those subtle slider movements are poetic and should I be seeing this in my file in Sonar or am I missing something else here? Thanks Dan for your excellent videos.

    Thanks again everyone for your excellent suggestions.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  7. #7

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    ...I noticed in Sonar that Aria's Mod Wheel does now have subtle movement. As a further observation, the sliders in Dan's videos of Digital Performer reflect these subtle movements. By comparison, the sliders in Sonar's Console View for my file are static'. There is no movement at all...
    Hi, Michael - Glad your thread is helping out.

    ARIA's mod wheel will be moving now as the CC1 MIDI instrument volume control is being read. That's as it should be, yes.

    But in Dan's video, what you're seeing are the volume sliders on Audio tracks, not MIDI tracks. Like me, Dan works in the Audio realm for a mix. If he has MIDI in a project, he bounces the tracks to Audio tracks, and from that point on, with ARIA and other VST instruments muted, the MIDI tracks hidden from view - he's mixing Audio.

    So that's right, you'll see no movement in your Sonar Console View, on either the MIDI tracks or Audio tracks - not with the way you're working. The CC1 is is expressively playing your instruments, you're seeing the mod wheel move - But the volume sliders on the MIDI tracks and the sliders in ARIA aren't moving - those are the ones controlled by CC7.

    If you bounce your tracks to Audio, then you can do more detailed work with Audio track automation, like you see in Dan's video.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    Hello Randy and thanks for your explanation.

    Like yourself and Dan I started bouncing my MIDI tracks to audio too. My 2012 Christmas song was mixed and completed in the audio realm. I too have come to prefer the more detailed work this way.

    Earlier I tried a test file. MIDI bounced to audio and there was no slider movement. As an aside, also, when trying to draw in freehand after touch, I can only get vertical flags. I can't get the smooth conected 'hills and valleys'. I've closed the grid and use Ctrl with mouse but nothing.

    There is something going on here.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  9. #9

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    Michael, I had just finished writing a new post when your new reply came in. I'm going to post what I have, and then be back with direct responses to your new post. I'd re-write this in light of what you've just said, but it'll still help out I think:
    ---------
    Michael, here's an example of volume automation recorded in Sonar. This is from a mixing session where everything is Audio. MIDI tracks have been muted and archived after they were bounced to Audio, hidden from the work space with the Track manager, and soft synths have been turned off.

    With the option turned on for recording Audio volume automation, movements of the volume sliders are recorded by grabbing and moving the sliders during playback - either with your mouse or with a MIDI control device that has sliders, and the volume data appear as envelopes in the Track View which you're seeing in this screen shot.



    In the lower half you're seeing some of the Buses used in the project. Besides the automation on individual tracks, I've recorded automation for the section Buses also.

    If you had the Console View on display during playback of this mix, all of the sliders would be moving up and down like you saw in Dan's video, driven by that recorded automation.

    You see? All of that is Audio work. Recording the volume performances of your MIDI instruments is a totally different thing. No sliders in Sonar or ARIA are going to be moving because CC1 (11 or 2) is MIDI data directly controlling the instruments. The only thing you'll see moving is a knob that may be connected to your MIDI controller - like the Mod Wheel knob in ARIA. But that's not automation, that's part of your MIDI file, part of the performance.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: Problems of CC7 and CC1 With Garritan, Finale and Sonar

    AND MORE REPLIES:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    ...I started bouncing my MIDI tracks to audio too. My 2012 Christmas song was mixed and completed in the audio realm. I too have come to prefer the more detailed work this way.
    Ah, OK. After bouncing to audio, the thing to do is then really shape the mix with volume automation, as shown in my last post. If you don't do anything with the audio after bouncing, there's not much reason to bounce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    Earlier I tried a test file. MIDI bounced to audio and there was no slider movement.
    Maybe my last post cleared this up - but in this quote, you're still confusing MIDI volume and Audio volume. Do everything you want in the MIDI realm, including recording CC1 volume data. Then, when you bounce that to Audio - you're just making an audio file of what's coming out of ARIA - the sound. You're not recording the MIDI volume data, you're recording what it sounds like when the instrument is played with that data. So, right, of course there's no slider movement. You'll have one solid Audio clip, identical to what you'd get if you strung up a microphone to record a live musician--and naturally you wouldn't expect slider movement on a track made that way.

    The slider movement you're seeing in Dan's video is caused by volume envelopes on his audio tracks, like the ones in my last post's screen shot. The slider movement only comes after you've recorded some volume automation on the audio track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post

    As an aside, also, when trying to draw in freehand after touch, I can only get vertical flags. I can't get the smooth connected 'hills and valleys'. I've closed the grid and use Ctrl with mouse but nothing...
    That's odd - Turning off Snap and holding Ctrl while drawing should get you all the continuous, complex hills and valleys you'd want. You're right, that if all you get is a single event of AT, or any MIDI controller that you're working with - that should be only when you're not bypassing the single event mode with the Ctrl button. I don't know what's wrong there. I mean, you have to be using the right tool to draw with? Hmmm.

    Randy

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