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  1. #1


    We finally came to the point that we can honestly say that we have come so close to a real sampled grand piano that you can fool even the most acomplished concert pianist with our samples.
    I’ve been recording two albums recently for Jan Vayne ( Jan Vayne website ) on the same Bosendorfer 290 that we used for our PMI GRANDIOSO Bosendorfer290 sample library. We recorded several tracks on both the real instrument and my midi conversion system. I presented Jan with a cd with several sampled tracks between the real ones and he didn’t know they weren’t all real recordings. He didn’t notice the difference between the acoustic and the sampled grand. He couldn’t believe I used a sample when I told him what I did.

    Join the fun part and listen to these MP3 files and tell me which one is sampled and why or just let me know what you think! We’ll give away a free copy of the Bosendorfer290 away for the best answer.

    You needed me
    take 1
    take 2

    Psalm 145
    take 1
    take 2

    Michiel Post

  2. #2


    Wow, competitions!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

    This is what i think:
    \'Sound 7 you needed me.mp3\' is samples. Theres a repeating sound in a release trigger or pedalsample.. sound like theres rumbling in the release trigger?

    \'Sound 7 you needed me 2.mp3\' is real. sounds better. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    \'psalm 145.mp3\' is samples... more rumbling than the other version.

    \'psalm145 2.mp3\' is real, sounds better.. and theres a phone signal in the end.. i dont think you would have that in your samples.
    If im wrong, is my credibility gone then? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]


  3. #3


    I\'m a sucker for these competitions as well [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    I read Tob\'s post first and I thought I was listening to the \"fake\" thing when I heard the first mp3. How wrong I was!

    Sound 7 you needed me.mp3 is the real clip. Inconsistent rumbling from key presses, releases, pedals etc. gives it away. There\'s also the arpeggio, featured prominently throughout the piece. When there\'s a lot of activity in the mid register I hear the strings resonating together on the real clip: First heard around 0:50 and then later on at 1:17.

    They both sound great, but \"Sound 7 You Needed Me.mp3\" sounds more real to me.

    With Psalm145 it was a bit more tricky. The low rumbling from the keys in \"Psalm 145.mp3\" is consistent. Same sample happens on the same note on the same velocity. You can hear it if you crank up the low\'s on your mixing desk [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Repeating pattern. And the release samples seem to cut off. The rumbling is abruptly cut off at the release of the pedal. Having said that, though it\'s incredibly hard to tell the difference straight away!

    Psalm 145 2 has the phone ringing(!) but apart from that it breathes much more. It just feels much more alive. Could be you put in that phone just to trick us, but it sounds like the real thing to my ears.

    In the end I would like to add the fact that I\'ve played the piano for well over 10 years. It was my main instrument at the music conservatory. I\'ve played many different pianos and concert grands including Bösendorfers, but at first listen I cannot tell whether these are real or sampled clips, which I\'m guessing is your ultimate point with the test. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I think activity (triads, figures, arpeggios) in the mid-register is particularily difficult to replicate with samples because the strings vibrate and resonate differently when they are \"interacting sonically\" with each other. I don\'t hear this \"artifact\" in your sampled demos, but this is obviously beyond what\'s possible using the technology today.

    Apart from all the tech stuff I think it\'s fair to say that the piano sounds great! Sampled or not.


  4. #4


    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... I will take a closer listen when i get home... heheheh. tricky...


  5. #5



    All four performances sound teriffic, but I am not going to try to render an opinion about which are real. However, I have a technical question which relates to an issue I brought up in another thread.

    How do you produce the sampled versions? 1) Do you simply sit down at an electronic keyboard that is hooked up to Giga and then play and record the songs just as though you were playing the real Bosendorfer? 2) Do you do as described in 1), create a midi recording in the process, and then go back and tweak the midi? 3) Do you render the sampled recordings entirely through midi, perhaps splitting the melody and bass lines into different tracks that can then be tweaked to sound better. 4)Some other method I haven\'t thought of.

    Notwithstanding the above, which is easier, less costly and less time consuming -- creating recordings of the real Bosendorfer or creating the sampled recordings?

    Thanks. And again, very nice recordings.

  6. #6


    Take 2 (Sound 7 You Needed Me 2) is the real thing - and take1 (Sound 7 You Needed Me) is the \"fake\". Its obvious. Hehehe. Samples sounds almost alike - but there is mo\' warmth and colour on second one - and it breaths more - and I can hear Take1 run out of polys aswell. : ) But I am not sure. Thomas is right about the blending of resonance. However that might the illusion of a good acoustic mirror. Goddamn this one is hard...

    Love - Chris

  7. #7


    It was hard... but I hope I\'m right...

    I agree with Thomas... that phone is for deception [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    \'Psalm 145\' take 1 is samples. Noticed that repeating note at 1:02 which is way better in take 2. Being not the best piano player in the world [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] but sat down quite a time in front of them I think the second has a better pianissimo \"feeling\" at 0:39.

    \'You needed me\' Same thing here for me. The repeated attacks can be recognizeable in direct comparison (0:30 on theme and later on in the higher registers). So my guess is take 1 is samples and take 2 the real thing.

    But I really think if you present only one of these without a comparison it is even harder to judge which it is and for me definately not on the first listen.


    PS: The Psalm pieces are provided in mono for what reason?

  8. #8


    \"The reality is, that it isn\'t real\" !!!that is a good one in this case.

    I\'ll give the outcome of this next week.

    BTW these sampled versions were made with in Cubase using Kontakt for playback... meaning that the Kontakt version of my Bösendorfer library is ready for release.

    Michiel Post [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

  9. #9


    Michiel, I suspect something tricky from you.
    Are you sure about one of the tracks being \"real\"? ( \"sound 7 you needed me\")

    (edit : damn I read your last post just after posting mine)

  10. #10


    You needed me take 1

    Is real, no question about that. The resonance gives
    it all away. Also the repeted notes has more \"pianistic\" (strongest attack in the beginning, and then more softer) feeling in them, while the take 2 has the repeated notes in same attack. It\'s also much more \"dramatic\" like the
    player is moving a lot on his chair. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

    You needed me take 2

    Is a fake. It\'s too clean! I never hear pianist play
    so clean, most often there are occasions where the player
    \"mistakenly\" have the pedal down to long or he use it as
    exaggeration tool in the most dramatic places like we heard
    we heard in the take 1 file.

    Psalm145 take 1

    Is a fake. And it\'s the same thing which gives it away,
    resonance, pedals etc. Too clean! And too even playing!

    Psalm145 take 2

    Is a real. Here it\'s also the chords which gives it away
    because it\'s very difficult to have such huge difference
    between the melody and the chords like in the take 1.
    Also the phone is ringing, isn\'t anybody answering? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Anyway, they all sounded good but there are still some
    work to do to fool everybody.

    Nb. I play on a piano myself and if this isn\'t correct
    answers. My credit will go away completely, and I\'ll live in shame all my life. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

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