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Topic: No COMB sub forum

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  1. #1

    No COMB sub forum

    Haven't posted in a LONG while! Just looking through the forums for an answer to a question and noticed that there was no separate sub forum for COMB under the Garritan libraries or under the Education forum. The Education forum, by the way is superb for orchestration information. Maybe the concert marching band is too much of a dinosaur, but marches still give me a lift! Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has a concert marching band seating chart similar to the ones found in the the Education section for orchestras. I don't know concert bands are as standardized as orchestras, but I need to set pan values and the days of my high school marching band are getting a bit foggy in memory.

  2. #2

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    Quote Originally Posted by mkuehlok2 View Post
    Haven't posted in a LONG while! Just looking through the forums for an answer to a question and noticed that there was no separate sub forum for COMB...
    Hi, Mkuehlok - There's a Forum here which combines COMB and JABB. It is, alas, rarely visited anymore. This Forum, General Discussion, has become the place for posting any and all topics, including technical help with the Libraries. But, in case you didn't notice the COMB/JABB Forum in the drop down menu, here's that link:

    COMB/JABB Forum

    As for what some accepted seating charts are for Concert Bands - A quick Google Image search brought up this picture which has two charts pictured - one for a "young band" and the other for a full stage band:



    Those should be helpful.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    Thanks Randy. I did see the COMB/JABB forum, but the only sub-forums that are in it were the JABB Club and the Support/Technical sub-forums. Didn't find the same wealth of info that was in the GPO forums. Thanks for the diagrams. I looked on Google, but all I could find was a couple of empty seating charts, which wasn't much help. Guess it's not so much what you Google but who Googles it. I did figure out, though, if you use the Garritan synths and leave the Sonar X2 MIDI pan controllers alone, the instruments are automatically panned, but you can't get any kind hard value off the Garritan pan controller. Thanks again for your input.

  4. #4

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    I think the Garritan forums have been gradually self-consolidating into just a couple of areas, the most important of which is the General Discussion forum. More people post there, so you're likely to get more (and quicker) responses to your questions, which in turn means that more people will post there.

    Double posting is, understandably, discouraged because people don't like to have to look in several forums for the answer to a single question. And, personally, I don't like having to check several forums just to see what's new.

    All this suggests to me that we probably need fewer forums: one for Giga based Garritan products and one for non-Giga. And, perhaps, one each for posting musical compositions.

    It does kind of make sense from another perspective, too. How many of us are using only one Garritan product? I own GPO and JABB myself. If the organ library was released a couple of years earlier, before I bought one from another publisher, I'd own that. My impression from the posts that I have read over the years is that most JABB users also own GPO or COMB. Most of my compositions use patches from multiple libraries. I tend to think of them as a group, rather than a number of separate tools (unless I am having an issue with a particular product).

    Allegro Data Solutions

  5. #5

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    Thanks ejr. I see your point.

  6. #6

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    Quote Originally Posted by mkuehlok2 View Post
    ...if you use the Garritan synths and leave the Sonar X2 MIDI pan controllers alone, the instruments are automatically panned, but you can't get any kind hard value off the Garritan pan controller...
    Glad to help, Mkuehlok - And yes, Garritan instruments have default panning positions as part of their programming. Theoretically you can load the instruments you want for a piece, and the panning will be done for you.

    It's good practice, however, to take a look and see if you can't make some changes so that the pannings conform to what you'd really like, since that could very well be different from what the programmers chose for panning positions.

    If you want to re-create the seating in one of those diagrams I found, you would want to change the default pannings accordingly, and also use reverb Sends to various degrees to finish up the sonic picture. Looking at either of the posted diagrams, saxes and cornets would have a tiny bit more reverb than flutes, tubas and euphs would have even a bit more, and percussion would have the most. That use of reverb is part of what you need to do for emulating a seating chart.

    I'm not sure what part of your new post means, when you said, "...you can't get any kind hard value off the Garritan pan controller..." But I think you may be referring to the relationship between the pan controls in Sonar and those in ARIA. If so, this will help:

    --The controls in Sonar's MIDI tracks, both volume and panning, are the master controls for the project. They control the matching controls in ARIA. If you want to change the volume and/or the panning of an instrument, use Sonar's controls, and you'll see the controls move in ARIA. Now when you start and stop your project, those settings won't change - But if you used the controls in ARIA, then they would be re-set every time you stopped and started, with the controls moving to the positions determined in Sonar. In other words, set your panning and volume in Sonar's MIDI track headers. You see?

    By the way, a small side-note: The instruments in COMB, and in the rest of the Garritan Libraries, aren't "synths" - they're software instruments, or virtual instruments, based on recorded samples of real instruments. Synth sounds are completely electronic in their origin. - Just one of those definition things I like to keep straight.


    Quote Originally Posted by ejr View Post
    I think the Garritan forums have been gradually self-consolidating into just a couple of areas, the most important of which is the General Discussion forum...
    Exactly right, Ejr. That's why for some time now I've directed newcomers to General Discussion for posting their questions which otherwise can languish in the dust filled halls of the technical forums.

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    Thanks Randy. Back in the day when Cakewalk was Cakewalk and Sonar was only the gleam in a developer's eye, they provided the following orchestra settings table in the document info in a template:

    Track Instrument Key+ Chn Pan Range (untransposed) Useful Range (untransposed)
    1. Piccolo 12 1 56 D6 to C9 G6 to F8
    2. Flutes 2 60 C5 to C8 F5 to F7
    3. Oboes 3 68 Bb4 to G#7 F5 to A6
    4. English Horn -7 4 72 E4 to A6 G4 to F6
    5. Bb Clarinets -2 5 58 D4 to Ab7 D4 to C7
    6. A Clarinets -3 5 58 C#4 to G7 C#4 to B6
    7. Bass Clarinet -12 6 56 Db3 to F6 Db3 to F5
    8. Bassoon 7 70 Bb2 to Eb6 F3 to B5
    9. Contrabassoon -12 8 72 Bb1 to Eb4 n/a
    10.
    11. French Horns -7 9 64 D3 to F6 Bb3 to C6
    12. Trumpets -2 11 70 E4 to E7 G4 to D7
    13. Trombones 12 80 E3 to Bb5 G3 to G5
    14. Tuba 13 92 A2 to Bb4 A2 to Bb4
    15.
    16. Timpani 14 50 n/a n/a
    17. Bass Drum 15 48 n/a n/a
    18. Cymbal 10 40 n/a n/a
    19. Triangle 10 40 n/a n/a
    20 Celesta 16 38 C5 to C9 C5 to C9
    21.
    22. Piano 2:1 28 A2 to C9 A2 to C9
    23.
    24. Harp 2:2 18 Cb1 to G#8 Cb1 to G#8
    25.
    26. Violins 2:3 15 G4 to B7 G4 to B7
    27. Violas 2:4 88 C4 to C#7 C4 to C#7
    28. Cellos 2:5 105 C3 to C6 C3 to C6
    29 Double Basses -12 2:6 120 E3 to G5 E3 to G5


    You can tell how old it is because of the following disclaimer:

    "A full orchestra requires more than 16 kinds of instruments. So, you will not be able to effectively use all of this template unless you have two output ports available. (Each port provides 16 MIDI Channels)."

    Anyway, since I've imported a lot of projects down through the years through various iterations of Cakewalk and now Sonar, I still have that template in the document info for various projects. Those pan values are what I meant by hard values (even at that, they are way outmoded for Sonar as they have to be converted to the 0-127 scale). I understand how to manipulate Aria controls using the control knobs in Sonar, but I had hoped there was someway to intercept the values for the Aria controls in order to keep track of them. I suppose I could just right down "flutes - two clicks left of dead center" but my OCD tendencies shudder at the thought. Some synths (like TTS-1) will actually let you set a value or turn a knob, and you can see exactly what you have. I had hoped to intercept the Aria values, set the Sonar values to the same and diddle with them from there, but I guess you can't run sausage back through the grinder. Your diagrams will be a great help, though.

    Geeze, I know that about the synth/instrument thing, and you'd think that as anal retentive as I am, I could keep it straight in conversation! My only excuse is I don't get out much and don't get to talk with people much about this stuff. Thanks for the reminder!

  8. #8

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    Hey, that's an interesting post, Mkuehlok2 - I've never seen that document before. I started with Pro Audio 9, the last version before it became Sonar. I bet I have that template in a folder still, just never noticed it.

    Looks like you've typed up your own version, because those pan settings are in the MIDI 0-127 scale. And those pans look pretty good, with the exception of the Violas way over at 88--? I would usually put Violas at Center.

    Your OCD is better than mine! hehe- I don't go by numbers for pans, I just push the controls to a general area, then keep listening and adjusting until I like what the sound is for a given project.

    "...Some synths (like TTS-1) will actually let you set a value or turn a knob, and you can see exactly what you have. I had hoped to intercept the Aria values, set the Sonar values to the same and diddle with them from there..."

    I guess you're referring to how ARIA's knobs don't have numbers, just the notches? Because when you work with Sonar's knobs, you can see the knobs in ARIA turn, you just don't have a super accurate way of knowing where you are because of the lack of numbers.

    Randy

  9. #9

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    No, I can't take credit for the table. I copied it over as is. And yes, since working with GPO I've seen that the violas should have been placed in the center. You know, I can't remember when I got that template or even where. I started out with Cakewalk 2.something and took it to, what, Cakewalk 4.something maybe? I skipped Pro Audio entirely and went to Sonar 2.2. I may have gotten that template with one of the Edirol synths that came along with the early Cakewalk. Ah, nostalgia!

    Just thought of something! If my OCD REALLY kicks in, I can put an instrument into, say channel 1 in the Aria player and then put the same instrument into channel 2. I can adjust the Sonar pan for channel 1 until the the Aria pan knob for channel 1 looks exactly like the pan knob for channel 2. That should give me a real close idea of what the Aria pan setting is for that instrument, and I can tweak from there.

    Geeze, thanks Randy! I'm always looking for new and wonderful ways to waste my time!

  10. #10

    Re: No COMB sub forum

    I'm just wondering how much you have to separate two instruments to hear a difference. I've never tried anything under increments of five.

    For example:

    Flute 60
    Oboe 65
    Clarinet 70
    Bassoon 75

    For instruments that take up a lot of room, I use a larger interval:

    Trumpets 85
    Trombones 95
    Timpani 110

    And I never pan full L or R.

    Not trying to be realistic here. I just want to give a little separation between the parts and suggest a plausible seating arrangement for the pit orchestra. Eventually, I reached something that sounds right to my ear for this score. I really don't want the listener trying to imagine where the instruments are. I want it to sound enough like what they subconsciously expect, so that they focus on the tune and the feel of the piece, rather than how it is being performed or how it was recorded.

    Allegro Data Solutions

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