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Topic: Possible future woodwinds library.

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  1. #1

    Possible future woodwinds library.

    This is all hypothetical, so don\'t reply back with doubts of the library. It is just that -- possible, not definite.

    If I were to focus on making my own library of solo woodwinds, starting on the double reeds first, what kind of articulations and samples would you like to be able to have? I want this to be a library made by an end user of samples FOR the other end users of samples out there, so the sound and functionality of it will be the main drive.

    The first one will probably be oboe, since it\'s my favorite double reed instrument. The following are articulations I was considering:

    NOTE: 4 velocities with seven notes per octave sampled unless otherwise stated.

    * Sustain with vibrato (2x)
    * Sustain without vibrato (2x)
    * Portato with slow vibrato (2x)
    * Portato with fast vibrato (2x)
    * Fast Marcato (2x)
    * Medium-Fast Marcato (2x)
    * Medium-Slow Marcato (2x)
    * Slow Marcato (2x)
    * Staccato (4x)
    * Spiccato (4x)
    * Sustained Trill **
    * Fast accel/cresc Trill **
    * Slow accel/cresc Trill **
    * Effects (i.e. key clicks, blowing through the reed, playing with mouthpiece only, etc.)

    ** Except for Bflat-Bnatural and Cnatural-Csharp

    Many may not agree with going for a library with VSL and EWQLSO coming out soon, but personally I agree with Bruce in that you can never have enough samples. Would we want these far sampled, or close and far sampled for a choice? Why do I have at least two of most samples? This library will function not only as a solo, but as two players also -- a kind of two-in-one deal for those of us (like myself) that don\'t like sampled dual oboes.

    Here\'s where the opinions of you guys come in. An oboist can hold out tone for an extended length of time, this we know. Now, do we want nice long sustains like Dan Dean, do we want shorter (about 6-7 secs) sustains with alternate looping patches, or both short and long for everyone to choose? Send you suggestions over here.

    Yeah, I\'m crazy -- this is no new news.

  2. #2

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    Hey that list looks familiar! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Be sure to think about the need of sustains (or other longer notes) with a fast/hard attack and a slow/soft attack. The last one is great for slow, expressive notes on their own, but won\'t work in a faster line, because the attack would be too slow. You need the first one for that.

    About the mics. More distances of course is always better, but by wanting a far ambience mic you need a larger recording space, so you will most likely get some room and tail on the close mics as well. You can\'t help that. But that doesn\'t have to be a problem at all. Just be aware.

    The term \'spiccato\' is only used for strings, not for woodwinds. I you meant to say \'a shorter staccato\' you could name it \'staccatissimo\'.

    About the long sustains. I think more important than pure tone length is expression, but I agree you need some length to hold longer notes. Maybe make one or two of your sustain items really long, and then make sure you have a marcato articulation that\'s actually more like a short sustain, with a nice round ending.

    All the best,

    Maarten

  3. #3

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    Hey that list looks familiar! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hey, if it works ( so far from what I\'ve heard you\'re 2 of 2 [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ) why fix it? Man I love that old adage....

    Be sure to think about the need of sustains (or other longer notes) with a fast/hard attack and a slow/soft attack.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Duly noted. I had planned on making the marcatos the choice for stronger attacks, but this would work as well.

    The term \'spiccato\' is only used for strings, not for woodwinds. I you meant to say \'a shorter staccato\' you could name it \'staccatissimo\'.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thank you! I meant staccatissimo and not spiccato, but for the life of me I couldn\'t draw the word from my tired brain.

    think more important than pure tone length is expression, but I agree you need some length to hold longer notes. Maybe make one or two of your sustain items really long, and then make sure you have a marcato articulation that\'s actually more like a short sustain, with a nice round ending.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That would also work as well. I didn\'t mean to cut out on the tone of the notes, nor cheapen the expressiveness at all, though I\'m sure you knew that. The idea behind the library is I want the expression and emotion found in Miroslav, but I want the end user to be able to have the many choices of articulations and uses as say SAM products or Garritan Orchestral Strings.

  4. #4

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    AFter using VSL, I dont think I could really use Woods without some sort of legato control.

    You might be able to get away with sampling Major and Minor Grace note samples

    Multiple mics for sure IMO.

    Long notes can be looped, so dont worry too much about the length on non vibrato, and make sure you have atleast 6 seconds to loop in the expressive/moving stuff.

  5. #5

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    The list looks really good. I could use an Oboe like this for sure.

    The only thing I would suggest are different lengths of portato. Some times I like those short notes to be a bit longer or shorter.

    Keep us posted.

  6. #6

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    Originally posted by esperlad:
    The list looks really good. I could use an Oboe like this for sure.

    The only thing I would suggest are different lengths of portato. Some times I like those short notes to be a bit longer or shorter.

    Keep us posted.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s doable. A friend mentioned he wanted so see some crescendo patches if possible, but I think that the different lengths of portato work better IMO. He also mentioned the almost need for chromatic samples for a solo instrument, on the grounds that seven notes per octave worked for SAM because it\'s a section. The solo would be easily heard and should be chromatically sampled, which I do agree with.

    Trills will have multiple velocities, but another question arises -- how many velocities do we want on the library as a whole? Do we want four or eight? Eight is necessary for brass, simply due to the construction of the horn and the vibration of the bell in the higher volumes. However, the question begs to be asked for oboe -- who much is enough, how much is too much, and how much is just right? I would think that four would cover it, but though eight would give us a broader range, is seems almost superfluous to me.

    Let me know what you guys think.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    Hi Russ,

    Bravo for your interest in creating libraries. I hope you have success, should you decide to pursue this.

    What\'s your personal bag? Are you a music producer, player, engineer? I think great libraries can come from any of these \"musical archetypes,\" but the road to success is a little different for each one. Here\'s some really general stuff:

    The critical issues: Venue, talent (players), quality of gear, expertise in designing the overall microphone plot, maximizing the collaborative effort of the team, Giga mapping expertise, etc.

    There are features which exist even in Giga 2.0 which have not yet been used in any library, and which could make a fairly dramatic difference in the kind of library you seek to make. A new feature or two might prove valuable to your efforts in marketing your work. If you intend to be the \"mapping artist\" I would highly recommend Mr. Govett\'s \"GigaStudio Mastery\" CD series as a course of study--paying attention to each setting on each tab of the editor!! Also, for speed in roughing in, be sure to become an expert with the \"blue balls\" and with naming conventions for ALL of the top sampling platforms, so that you do your tedious work once instead of many times. Also, Garth\'s (chicken systems) Translator is a good tool to have on hand for producing your multi-platform sets...as well as a fine tool for end users, for that matter.

    I would also recommend developing a single proof of concept instrument first, not for release, but for your own study and experimentation. It will be well worth it, and you might even make it a \"second chair\" if it\'s a home run. As I said, I don\'t know that I\'d release it, at least not before you release your product. The first impression...well, you know.

    The other thing I very highly recommend is a control room on premises, wherever you record. If you are an experienced engineer, you should be in the control room for the entire session (although I\'d get another engineer to man the cockpit, so that you can devote full attention to producing).

    THE most common musical error I have seen across the board is a lack of good solid attacks, even on sustains. By solid, I don\'t mean overbearing, just not \"blossoming.\" Even the very most talented players tend to play a little soloistically and introspectively in sampling sessions, since the context of a full ensemble is missing. It is an almost innate reaction, after all, for a section player to choose his attack intensity according to the amount needed to \"sell\" his part in context. Out of context, where there\'s no need to overcome the \"accompaniament floor\" of the ensemble, it is VERY VERY easy to underattack relative to the dynamic level.

    The result of that in the mapped sample library is a series of notes which will not lead well to one another.

    So...hence the round of questions in my first paragraph. Depending on where your personal expertise lies, you may want to have a second ear around to make sure that the session is capturing exactly what you need. Clearly, all of this takes time to communicate, and all of it must be a part of your design from the very first move towards the sessions if you want to get out alive (or at least with any $$ in your pocket)!!

  8. #8

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    I think chormatic samples might work best. As far as dynamic layers....how about five? Dan Dean used up to six for his woodwinds. AO used two, the upcoming Quantum Leap orchestra used about three to four.

  9. #9

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    Russ - listen to Bruce. Great advice which you couldn\'t buy even if you had the money.

  10. #10

    Re: Possible future woodwinds library.

    This sounds like an excellent idea. I\'ll be interested in the outcome.

    Congrats. I\'ll be returning to this post so keep it updated...

    Ben Ripley

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