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Topic: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

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  1. #1

    LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Hi, I'm a total newbie here but I hop not to be soon. This is an either or thread I guess.

    I want to get the sound of an Irish flute using Garritan in Finale 2012. Here are three ways (there may be others) how you can help
    1. I've been experimenting blindly with Garritan Ambience ( I have no idea what I'm doing). Using this or any free or cheap master effect, how can I make a concert solo flute sound more wooden. I'm not an expert but if I had to be specific, I think I would want more noise in the lower spectrum, but still piercing in the upper spectrum. I guess this applies not only to individual sampled pitches, but in range of the instrument. Either would be fine.

    2. I have the Irish Flute from Garritan World Instruments. It is very leaky, as far as (keyless, lol) flutes go. I need to minimize noise at the top of the sample, and minimize the extremely noticeable undertones (I think the most obvious harmonic is an octave below). I find it very frustrating as when replicating Irish ornaments in the upper register where it is at best not crisp, you get strong underlying harmonics trying to do similar ornaments in a register which is even messier. Urgh.

    3. I can export the Irish flute's part and recombine it with my string ensemble with Adobe Audition CS6 no prob. Anyone know how I could accomplish situation 1 and/or 2 above in Audition?

    I hope I've given you enough to work with and I hope I've convinced you to help me experiment. Also, if you have a different approach to getting a Transverse Irish Flute sound, I'm totally open to it.

    PS I am good with software but bad with technical audio language. If a button is labelled, I'll find it, but otherwise...lol

  2. #2

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Hello, Zaith - I'm afraid I'm not going to be of much, if any help, but wanted to say Hi, and let you know I saw your post. I respond to as many things as I have time for, and frankly, it's not very often when no advice comes to mind.

    I have no idea how Adobe Audition works, so can't help you there.

    My main problem is that I can't hear the problems you're talking about in the World's Irish Flute. - When I first started reading your post, to suggest you get World was going to be my first piece of advice, since trying to get the concert flute in GPO to sound like an Irish Flute would pretty much be impossible. Then I was surprised to see you have World.

    I've used the Irish Flute a number of times - sounds great to me. - Your post made me open up ARIA and load it to refresh myself on how it sounds, and to listen for the undertones you're talking about in the low octave. -- Can't hear them. There is the tone of wind going through the wood, a characteristic part of the sound - is that what you're talking about?

    To make things simpler for yourself instead of trying to use plugins in a host program like Audition, go to the Controls window in ARIA, activate the EQ, then turn the High knob down, even as much as -7. Then experiment with the mid-range, sweeping through the frequencies with the first knob, then attenuating the frequency with the second knob. You may find an EQ setting that minimizes whatever sound it is you're talking about.

    You should also be trying the Convolution reverb in ARIA. There aren't too many controls, but quite a few impulse responses to choose from, and since those are real-space audio files, you'll get a more realistic reverb than Ambience - That may help you out.

    So, my basic problem is that I've used the Irish Flute and I'm very happy with it. One difference is that I play my instruments, I don't trigger them with notation, which is more stiff and limiting with what can be done.

    I wish you the best with it all.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaith View Post
    Hi, I'm a total newbie here but I hop not to be soon. This is an either or thread I guess.

    I want to get the sound of an Irish flute using Garritan in Finale 2012. Here are three ways (there may be others) how you can help
    1. I've been experimenting blindly with Garritan Ambience ( I have no idea what I'm doing). Using this or any free or cheap master effect, how can I make a concert solo flute sound more wooden. I'm not an expert but if I had to be specific, I think I would want more noise in the lower spectrum, but still piercing in the upper spectrum. I guess this applies not only to individual sampled pitches, but in range of the instrument. Either would be fine.

    2. I have the Irish Flute from Garritan World Instruments. It is very leaky, as far as (keyless, lol) flutes go. I need to minimize noise at the top of the sample, and minimize the extremely noticeable undertones (I think the most obvious harmonic is an octave below). I find it very frustrating as when replicating Irish ornaments in the upper register where it is at best not crisp, you get strong underlying harmonics trying to do similar ornaments in a register which is even messier. Urgh.

    3. I can export the Irish flute's part and recombine it with my string ensemble with Adobe Audition CS6 no prob. Anyone know how I could accomplish situation 1 and/or 2 above in Audition?

    I hope I've given you enough to work with and I hope I've convinced you to help me experiment. Also, if you have a different approach to getting a Transverse Irish Flute sound, I'm totally open to it.

    PS I am good with software but bad with technical audio language. If a button is labelled, I'll find it, but otherwise...lol
    Are you looking for something like this maybe? https://www.box.com/s/97223e2cd378e303a8b3
    ~Rod

  4. #4

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Zaith, are you there?
    ~Rod

  5. #5

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Thanks to you guys

    Randy, I was actually using Instruments for Finale, which was obviously a mistake lol. I think I found a solution with Aria after fiddling with it for a bit so thanks

    Rod, that's actually close to what i've come up with using the flute samples.

    My problem with the irish flute samples is though it is FANTASTIC for fast, Irish music when you want as much of the rough flavour as possible, as opposed to the dainty agile nature of a concert flute. But my endeavor is a lyrical one, and the raspiness and immediate response of the Ethno World instrument is too much. With my result from Aria, I took it into Audition and managed to 1. reduce the metallic ring and/or modify it/absorb it into the reverb, and 2. Enhance the sound of the air flowing from the concert flute sample so that it sounds wooden, but not fibrous.

    I like my result much better than the original sample (for this slow piece, anyway) but... I need to reduce to vibrato, which happens barely if at all in irish music. It sounds simple. I tried the controls in Aria for this but no luck. Anyone have any insight or suggestions for things I might have missed. I might end up taking the Irish flute sample and reworking that instead if flattening the pitch distorts the ornaments too much

    I'm being difficult for three reasons: The flute is the solo in my piece, so I'm zealous; I'm a flute player, so I'm picky; and I'm a flute player. so I'm naturally anal, lol. Thanks for the help, gentry!

  6. #6

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    It's good to be picky! I feel the exact same way when I work with trumpets.
    ~Rod

  7. #7

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaith View Post
    ... I need to reduce to vibrato, which happens barely if at all in irish music. It sounds simple. I tried the controls in Aria for this but no luck. Anyone have any insight or suggestions for things I might have missed...
    Hello again, Zaith

    I understand you to mean that you've been doing more experiments to get a concert flute in GPO to sound the way you want for this piece.

    In the quote I pulled out from your new post, you asked about controlling the vibrato, saying you haven't been able to control it. - There are several solo flute instruments available in GPO. The one labeled "flute solo vib" has vibrato recorded with the samples. The musician played the flute with vibrato, and that's what was recorded with the samples. That means the vibrato can't be controlled since it's built in.

    But there's also the "flute solo nonvib" which has samples with no vibrato. That's the one you want to use - either that or "flute solo ks." The later has keyswitches (the "ks" in its name) in a lower octave below the instrument's range. They're labeled in the ARIA interface so you can see what keyswitch notes to engage for vibrato, non-vibrato, or flutter.

    THE BEST PART of both of theses patches, "nonvib" and "ks" is that complete control over the vibrato is available. Load the nonvib patch, for instance - When you play it, you'll hear there's no vibrato - and that's what you're saying you want in the piece you're working on. But if there are any sustained notes where you Do want vibrato, you can add it by bringing in Channel After Touch. That's a controller more accessible in DAW software, it has to be available in your Audition software. You wouldn't want to just turn the After Touch on and off. It should swoop in from a value of Zero on up to however intense you want the vibrato. Then, if you look at the Controls window in ARIA, you'll see that the speed of the vibrato can be controlled with MIDI Continuous Controller 17.

    So, if you want total control over your flute's vibrato, that's how you do it. Use one of those patches, and you can have a non-vibrato flute all the way through your piece if you want.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post

    THE BEST PART of both of theses patches, "nonvib" and "ks" is that complete control over the vibrato is available. Load the nonvib patch, for instance - When you play it, you'll hear there's no vibrato - and that's what you're saying you want in the piece you're working on. But if there are any sustained notes where you Do want vibrato, you can add it by bringing in Channel After Touch. That's a controller more accessible in DAW software, it has to be available in your Audition software. You wouldn't want to just turn the After Touch on and off. It should swoop in from a value of Zero on up to however intense you want the vibrato. Then, if you look at the Controls window in ARIA, you'll see that the speed of the vibrato can be controlled with MIDI Continuous Controller 17.

    So, if you want total control over your flute's vibrato, that's how you do it. Use one of those patches, and you can have a non-vibrato flute all the way through your piece if you want.

    Randy
    Hi Randy, I tried CC17 on the KS Flute, but really could not hear any difference in vibrato speed from 0% to 100%. Am I just hard of hearing? or is the effect very very subtle. Also, a quick question: when doing a solo flute work using GPO and my DAW, should I just use one MIDI track for the flute? I used the GPO Stereo Stage, Recital Hall I. I tried two tracks, got more sound, but some phasing (or something) going on. Thx. John Newell
    John Newell
    www.johnnewellmusic.com
    GPO4, Garritan World Instruments, Digital Performer 7.24, Finale 2012, Miroslav Philharmonik

  9. #9

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Quote Originally Posted by John Newell View Post
    Hi Randy, I tried CC17 on the KS Flute, but really could not hear any difference in vibrato speed from 0% to 100%. Am I just hard of hearing? or is the effect very very subtle. Also, a quick question: when doing a solo flute work using GPO and my DAW, should I just use one MIDI track for the flute? I used the GPO Stereo Stage, Recital Hall I. I tried two tracks, got more sound, but some phasing (or something) going on. Thx. John Newell
    Good to hear from you again, John.

    OK - several mistakes you made here. I'll try to keep the instructions simpler:

    --CC17 doesn't control the speed of vibrato on the Vibrato Flute in either the KS flute or regular Vib Flute. The vibrato was recorded with those samples. That's how the flutist played the instrument when the samples were made.

    --Load either the NonVib Flute or the KS Flute. If you use the latter, you need to use the keyswitches. Look at the ARIA interface. The default instrument is the Vibrato flute. Hit that low D and the non-vibrato samples will be engaged. If that's too confusing just use the NonVib Flute patch which has just that one sample set in it.

    --Both the NonVib Flute and the KS Flute with the non-vib keyswitch on WILL have Vibrato if you PLAY the vibrato with Channel AfterTouch. The default sound is non-vibrato - But vibrato is available with AT.

    --Once you're using some AfterTouch on notes, you can vary the speed of the vibrato with CC17.

    --In your DAW software, in the Piano Roll View, you can draw in AfterTouch data if your keyboard doesn't have a way of generating AT in real time.

    --Why did you use two tracks? You're playing one instrument, the Flute. One MIDI track per instrument. You always get phasing when playing two exact same instruments at the same time - that's what phasing is. You wanted more sound? more volume?--that's relative to the volume of all the other instruments in a piece.

    Hope all that helps.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: LFH with Flute Samples - getting an Irish sound

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Good to hear from you again, John.

    OK - several mistakes you made here. I'll try to keep the instructions simpler:

    --CC17 doesn't control the speed of vibrato on the Vibrato Flute in either the KS flute or regular Vib Flute. The vibrato was recorded with those samples. That's how the flutist played the instrument when the samples were made.

    --Load either the NonVib Flute or the KS Flute. If you use the latter, you need to use the keyswitches. Look at the ARIA interface. The default instrument is the Vibrato flute. Hit that low D and the non-vibrato samples will be engaged. If that's too confusing just use the NonVib Flute patch which has just that one sample set in it.

    --Both the NonVib Flute and the KS Flute with the non-vib keyswitch on WILL have Vibrato if you PLAY the vibrato with Channel AfterTouch. The default sound is non-vibrato - But vibrato is available with AT.

    --Once you're using some AfterTouch on notes, you can vary the speed of the vibrato with CC17.

    --In your DAW software, in the Piano Roll View, you can draw in AfterTouch data if your keyboard doesn't have a way of generating AT in real time.

    --Why did you use two tracks? You're playing one instrument, the Flute. One MIDI track per instrument. You always get phasing when playing two exact same instruments at the same time - that's what phasing is. You wanted more sound? more volume?--that's relative to the volume of all the other instruments in a piece.

    Hope all that helps.

    Randy
    Thanks Randy, I appreciate how you cleared it up for me. Now I to learn using Aftertouch on my Axiom keyboard, or more likely I'll draw it in on my DAW. That seems to work for me. On the two track issue for the flute solo piece, my thoughts were going to the fact that for live performances two mikes are used even for solo instruments.

    After a bit of a hiatus I'm getting back into GPO and Digital Performer, as I have a number of pieces that I want to realize digitally as well as possible. John
    John Newell
    www.johnnewellmusic.com
    GPO4, Garritan World Instruments, Digital Performer 7.24, Finale 2012, Miroslav Philharmonik

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