• Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 5 of 5

Topic: Offsetting start times

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Offsetting start times

    Suppose I'm using COMB2 in Finale 2011b, Windows 7. My understanding is that to minimize "organ effect," I'd have to offset start times of individual parts, but not whole tracks, just pieces of them. With COMB2 in Finale, how does one do that? In the Aria player? Does this adjustment require a DAW?

    I apologize if these questions seem remarkable elementary and laughable to some people, but I am obviously new to the MIDI world that COMB2 presents. I have used Finale, though, for some 10 years.

    Thanks.

    Arthur

  2. #2

    Re: Offsetting start times

    Quote Originally Posted by gogreen1 View Post
    Suppose I'm using COMB2 in Finale 2011b, Windows 7. My understanding is that to minimize "organ effect," I'd have to offset start times of individual parts, but not whole tracks, just pieces of them. With COMB2 in Finale, how does one do that? In the Aria player? Does this adjustment require a DAW?

    I apologize if these questions seem remarkable elementary and laughable to some people, but I am obviously new to the MIDI world that COMB2 presents. I have used Finale, though, for some 10 years.

    Thanks.

    Arthur
    Hi, Arthur - Welcome to the Forums. It's fine to post questions here, though these Technical Forums aren't visited very frequently anymore. I invite you to visit and post questions in General Discussion where most members hang out now.

    "...Does thie adjustment require a DAW?..." Yes, it does. In DAW software, most of the work is in directly editing MIDI data, something which is still difficult to do in Finale where the tools are rudimentary and incomplete. But in a recording program like Sonar, Cubase, et al - it's really easy to look at the notes in a MIDI track, and adjust their timing. An entire track can be offset a tiny amount to avoid the "organ effect" or smaller sections can be edited. The very meticulous will edit the start time of virtually every note in a duplicate track.

    There's something about the structure of the COMB samples that lend themselves, unfortunately, to having that unnatural "organ effect" creep in. If you can do this, here's something that helps minimize the effect - Have a solo instrument playing with a group instrument, both on the same MIDI channel. In Finale's mixer, move the soloist a bit so its not in exactly the same position, and move its volume fader to where you think it sounds best.

    Basically, the more layers you add, the closer you'll get to an organ - so I would suggest using as few instruments as you can get away with.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Offsetting start times

    Thanks, Randy. I appreciate your advice.

    Art

  4. #4

    Re: Offsetting start times

    Hi, Arthur...
    Nice to see you here as well as on the Finale forum.

    Organ effect can be minimized in Finale, but 'tain't easy. When I need to do a "performance" I use Overture since MIDI manipulation is easy in that program. Finale's MIDI tool has not been advanced since I started on Finale 2.0 in 1988.

    One way is to use the section patches instead of solo instruments for big sections like clarinets
    So instead of 3 players on clarinet 1, 3 on clarinet 2, etc. I use the prebuilt sections in COMB.
    Randy's point is well taken about using as few instruments as possible, and using the sections will help.

    I have been playing in bands since the Crimean war, and I know this for sure: No two people in a section play exactly the same pitch, even many of the A-list players that I get to work with from time to time--nor is any player 100% consistent on pitch. SO...I will tune oboe 1 a cent or two sharp and oboe 2 a cent or two flat. Some people don't like to do that, but I do.
    I also build in some VAR1 and VAR2 to each single instrument. Again, some people do not like that, but thirty-five years or so of experience tell me otherwise.
    I also randomize note-on and -off times by a few units to avoid what I believe to be the cause of most of the organ phenomenon: exactly coincident attacks (and releases). I believe Finale's Human Playback does that to some extent, but I have not done the grunt work needed to prove that. A lot of the "organ tone" can be removed by shifting attacks, even by just a few ticks (or EDUs in Finalespeak).

    But: A BAND IS NOT AN ORCHESTRA. All the woodwinds and brass are--roughly speaking--closed pipes energized by moving air, so what are they going to sound like when played well? AN ORGAN. If I had a nickle for every organ transcription I have played in bands, I could buy a case of Guinness and a couple of pizzas. There are no strings in a band to provide contrast or non-organ sounds. So, to some extent, an organ-ish sound may be expected in some passages. But shifting attacks and doing some randomisation may help. If time permits (I am learning a concerto) I will post an example or two.

    Jim
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  5. #5

    Re: Offsetting start times

    Hi Jim. Yeah, nice to see a "familiar" face here.

    I've been doing a lot of homework on "organ effect." So far, I've solved some of the problem by, as you and Randy suggest, using COMB sections. I've also randomized attacks via the Finale midi tool. I'm still experimenting with that, though. I've also found that using reverb judiciously helps. So also does mixing Garritan sounds with those of other samples--Sonatina Symphony Orchestra, in particular (and it's free!) I had an installation problem in the last week, since downloading COMB2, which MM support helped me solve, so now Garritan Ambience is working, and I can do more testing with reverb. I've been using Anwida DX Reverb Light in Audacity, and I like some of the presets--05 and 06, specifically, although I do dial them both down a bit.

    If you're using Garritan Ambience, I'm curious which settings you find pleasing.

    I'd love to hear some randomization examples!

    Thanks, Jim and Randy!
    Arthur J. Michaels
    https://www.facebook.com/composerarthurjmichaels

    Finale 2000 through Finales 25.4 (currently using Finale 25.4)
    Garritan COMB2, GPO4, GPO5, Audacity 2.1.3
    Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 10 Home Premium x64
    Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200
    M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496
    M-Audio AV-40 monitors

Go Back to forum

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •