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Topic: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

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  1. #1

    Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    I don\'t know how many of you share my sentiments. But I\'m really disappointed with the Gigapiano\'s incompatibility in mono and its non-smooth velocity switching. I wonder
    which piano samples out there are mono-compatible. Any response will be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    The impression I get with the piano sounds is that most people are making instruments which have the full note decay - which is a huge sample in itself. When you make this stereo, and also make a sample with the sustain pedal held down and another with the pedal up, you end up using vast amounts of memory.
    I think it would be a very practical, and still musical approach, to offer samples which loop after, say ten seconds, as well as versions which have many more velocity samples, even if these are at the expense of the pedal down versions. I know purists will flame me, but most of the music I write will benefit more from an increased number of velocity switched samples than full length, release samples and pedal up/down. After sampling the whole piano, why not offer an option for the \'less pure\' method?

  3. #3

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    Agreed! I think we were all so impressed initially with Gigasampler\'s ability to stream a piano sample through its full decay, that we forgot just how seldom this is needed!

    I, too, would like to see more layers, and would tolerate looping in order to get it.

  4. #4

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    I had an e-mail conversation with William Coakley, the creator of the Perfect Pi
    ano series, the other day. He mentioned that one only benefits from more than 2
    layers if one can have 6 to 12 layers. I now understand why. 3 to 4 layers ar
    e really not enough. I tried this on my piano at home, striking at various velo
    cities. The sounds are so distinct that you can\'t really smooth them out. I my
    self would go for at least 8 velocities. In fact, I am going to try make my own
    piano samples using 8-10 layers with looping on my upright Yamaha. It doesn\'t
    sound like any grand but it has a very decent tone when it comes to upright. Pl
    ease wish me luck. And if the results are good, I\'ll probably make it publicly
    available. I\'m sure some people will want the sound of an upright at times.

  5. #5

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    Kevin, I think that having a well sampled upright (in addition to a grand or two) is a good idea.

    Myself and a friend have just begun a project to sample his upright Bechstein (which has just been tuned). To get the raw material we used Sennheiser MKH40 mics as a crossed pair, a Langevin mic pre-amp, an Apogee PSX-100 A/D converter sampling at 88.2 KHz with 24 bit resolution, and an Alesis ADAT to store the high resolution recordings.

    It took several nights to accumulate about eight hours of raw recordings - We had to wait until late evening to start because of external noises such as birds, trains, planes, cat flaps etc... We stopped at about three in the morning because of the dawn chrorus of birds outside. It was hard work but satisfying. However, the really hard work is yet to come when we translate the best of the raw material into a decent sounding sampled upright.

    Good luck for both of us.

    Nicholas


  6. #6

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nicholash:
    Kevin, I think that having a well sampled upright (in addition to a grand or two) is a good idea.

    Myself and a friend have just begun a project to sample his upright Bechstein (which has just been tuned). To get the raw material we used Sennheiser MKH40 mics as a crossed pair, a Langevin mic pre-amp, an Apogee PSX-100 A/D converter sampling at 88.2 KHz with 24 bit resolution, and an Alesis ADAT to store the high resolution recordings.

    Nicholas
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Just curious. Will you be converting the sampling rate to 44.1kHz in the end?

  7. #7

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?


    =============================
    I think it would be a very practical, and still musical approach, to offer samples which loop after, say ten seconds, as well as versions which have many more velocity samples, even if these are at the expense of the pedal down versions......most of the music I write will benefit more from an increased number of velocity switched samples ..........
    ================================

    My first Gigasampler version of the Steinway-C Grand was produced along those lines. I did not think that the pedal down layers were that important, and I included more pedal-up only layers. However, after redoing the new version with both pedal-down and pedal-up layers, I can say from first hand experience that the improvement which the pedal-down samples makes is very surprising, and greater than one would think, even for music which uses only modest amounts of pedaling.
    I still have an issue with the fact that the Gigasampler does not properly handle pedal-state-switching when the pedal is pressed/released after the keypress, but that\'s another discussion.

    Looping the samples after 8 or 10 seconds to get a seemless loop is very labor intensive. I have done this as well to generate piano banksets for the Reality soft-synth, which requires all samples to fit in RAM. For the Gigasampler, the tradeoff is unquestionably in favor of recording and keeping the longer decay. It does not save RAM in the Gigasampler to have shorter samples, only disk space. I ran into a 2 gigabyte file size limitation with Windows, but the new Gigastudio claims to eliminate that problem by not using the same monolithic file structure.

    =====================================
    I had an e-mail conversation with William Coakley, the creator of the Perfect Pi
    ano series, the other day. He mentioned that one only benefits from more than 2
    layers if one can have 6 to 12 layers.
    =====================================
    This is my conclusion as well, with some caveats if you can use sub-layer cross-fading, which is why I elected to create the 16-layer version (8-up/8-down) in order to get adequately smooth transitions. Even with the current 8-layer version, I have created 16 layers from the sampled 8 layers by using the filtering to make intermediate pseudo-layers in order to smooth the velocity switching. I believe this technique can be used with the other gigasampler piano products as well, to similarly improve them.

    =======================================
    In fact, I am going to try make my own
    piano samples using 8-10 layers with looping on my upright Yamaha.
    ---------------
    Myself and a friend have just begun a project to sample his upright Bechstein ...
    =======================================

    I believe that one can never have enough good piano samples. A variety of piano samples to select from is always useful to be able to chose the right quality for the effect you want.
    Having been through the process myself, I will be happy to share any tips and tricks I have learned. If there is any assistance I can give, please feel free to contact me and let me know.

    Regards,

    Warren Trachtman http://www.wstco.com



  8. #8

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>

    =============================
    I still have an issue with the fact that the Gigasampler does not properly handle pedal-state-switching when the pedal is pressed/released after the keypress, but that\'s another discussion.
    =============================
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Warren,

    If you want to start another thread about this, I\'m sure there would be a lot of interest!

    Lawrence

  9. #9

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    It does not save RAM in the Gigasampler to have shorter samples, only disk space.


    That\'s a good point!
    I wasn\'t thinking. :-)

  10. #10

    Re: Any mono-compatible piano samples?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTrachtman:


    This is my conclusion as well, with some caveats if you can use sub-layer cross-fading, which is why I elected to create the 16-layer version (8-up/8-down) in order to get adequately smooth transitions. Even with the current 8-layer version, I have created 16 layers from the sampled 8 layers by using the filtering to make intermediate pseudo-layers in order to smooth the velocity switching. I believe this technique can be used with the other gigasampler piano products as well, to similarly improve them.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Do you just use a lowpass filter or some neat filtering? Or do you resynthesize these pseudo-layers?

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