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Topic: Solo Concert Grand

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  1. #1

    Solo Concert Grand

    Hello, I am a new Giga Sampler owner.
    Is there a decent Grand Piano sample one could use for a high profile solo-project?

    The included Gigapiano is not useful, as it sustains notes in a weird way. Makes the recording sound like the engeneer used a generous amount of reverb?

    After listening to 9 CDs of the Xsample library, I am dissapointed in what Gigasampler can do.
    Any hints where one could get a piano sound that lives up to the hipe would be of great help.

    Regards,
    John Palentin

  2. #2

    Re: Solo Concert Grand

    There are two pianos developed specifically for the Giga.

    Warren Trachtman\'s and Michel Post\'s
    http://www.trachtman.org/pianosounds/index.htm
    http://www.dmm.to/ns/post_prist_piano.html

    I believe the \'too much reverb\' effect you\'re hearing is the samples which are recorded with the sustain pedal down. You might get rid oif it by making a patch which doesn\'t have those samples. Someone had the idea that it would sound nice to hear all the resonance on the other strings when you hold down the sustain pedal. But that only works on the first single note. As you add more notes you add layer upon layer of similar resoances for each new note -which is NOT how a piano works. With a real piano you only have one piano resonance at any moment. It may be a result of many notes interacting, but that\'s not the same as adding together eight sets of resonances from eight individual pedal down notes.

    The only way I see to emulate this is with modelling synthesis, where the computer looks at what notes are being held down and adds the appropriate additional harmonic resonance to fake the pedal down effect.

    Maybe next year

  3. #3

    Re: Solo Concert Grand

    several solo piano records have been recorded using our samples!
    vrsound_giga_module.
    the best pianos.
    the best drums.
    the best rhodes.

  4. #4

    Re: Solo Concert Grand

    Hi!
    Chadwick is right, the PM is currently the best option for modelling pedal and resonances of the strings. It has been actually implemented in some DigiPianos, e.g. by the GEM Real Piano and some more expensive KAWAI models. Of course the strings resonate not only when pedal is used but also without it - the notes held by fingers all interact.

    There is many more problems to be solved before the pianos could sound convincing. Just a few:
    - The right pedal must be implemented as an continuous controller (I know I am geting annoying with this)
    - Up to certain velocity there must not be any sound coming (classical pianists need sometimes to press a key without a sound which is not so difficult, but you would be surprised how many DP ignore this).
    - The Note off velocity needs to be implemented.
    etc.

    But of course there are some pianos which are fairly good already.

    Ondrej

  5. #5

    Re: Solo Concert Grand


    =======================
    . You might get rid oif it by making a patch which doesn\'t have those samples
    =======================

    The pedal switching currently possible with the Gigasampler/Gigastudio, between pedal-up and pedal down samples, is indeed an inaccurate representation of a true acoustic piano. The points you bring up have been discussed before. This is one reason I have included a Pedal-up-only patch in my piano set. To my ear, the incorrect triggering of the resonance is more bothersome than the degree of resonance present.


    ==============================
    With a real piano you only have one piano resonance at any moment. It may be a result of many notes interacting, but that\'s not the same as adding together eight sets of resonances from eight individual pedal down notes.
    ==============================

    Actually, over a wide range of conditions, it *is* the same as adding individually induced resonances. The principle of superposition applies for pianos as it does for other linear physical systems. The sample recordings must be made, and processed, properly, but until you get into non-linear vibration regions (usually high strike-volume situations), the sympathetic resonance responses will be additive.


    ==================================
    PM is currently the best option for modelling pedal and resonances of the strings.
    ==================================

    Yes, a combination of physical modeling and sampling will ultimately provide the best simulation of how an actual acoustic piano behaves. For the moment, I personally consider a digital/sampled piano to be a different instrument, and you need to learn how to deal with how it behaves. Techniques which work on one instrument need to be adjusted when playing a different instrument.


    ======================================
    - The right pedal must be implemented as an continuous controller (I know I am geting annoying with this)
    ======================================

    In fact, this would not be a totally correct implementation either. I have programmed some test piano sets which have a continuously variable sustain, and these sound worse to me than the improperly switched \"dimension\" implementation. What is actually happening with partial pedalling is that the pianist is allowing the resonances to begin to build, but then dampening them before they reach full level. The best way to simulate this (without going to Physical Modeling) is for Nemesys to implement the ability to independently trigger a sample/envelope off of the sustain pedal controller, with independently programmable envelope rise/decay times relative to a pedal up/down threshold. If this were to be implemented, then the proper sustain pedal behavior could be very satisfactorily (though not perfectly) modeled with the Gigasampler/Gigastudio.
    I have previously brought this to the attention of the folks at Nemesys and they have expressed an interest in providing this in a future upgrade.


    ===========================================
    - Up to certain velocity there must not be any sound coming (classical pianists need sometimes to press a key without a sound which is not so difficult, but you would be surprised how many DP ignore this).
    =======================================
    Your expectations are unrealistic for a sampler product. The effect you are describing is to hear only the sympathetic resonances induced in a single note held by keypress, stimulated by other notes. This really requires a physical modeling approach, and it is never going to be simulated by a sampler alone.

    I\'m not disagreeing with you when you point out these sorts of second and third order effects, which software-samplers do not address. However, I wonder why you expect these to be incorporated in a product which does not contain the mathematical modeling engines necessary for such simulations. As a sampler, the Gigasampler/Gigastudio does a very good job of doing what a sampler can do. There are some enhancements which can be incorporated to allow better modeling of some piano characteristics, but unless the Nemesys folks take a very different approach, and start to include some physical modeling engines along with the sampler, you\'re just not going to get many of these subtle effects.
    I would love to see such physical modeling engines added to future Gigastudio upgrades. If and when they appear, I plan to take maximum advantage of the increased capability they should bring.

    Regards,

    Warren Trachtman
    http://www.wstco.com/



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