• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 5 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 44

Topic: Ensemble Building

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Ensemble Building

    Hi,

    Is there any information or tutorial videos available on how to build Ensemble sections from individual instruments? I would like to have a go at doing this, especially for divisi passages, but I don't know how its done.
    I would be very grateful for any information.

    Thank you.

  2. #2

    Re: Ensemble Building

    Afraid the only advice I can give is kind of negative. For me, the results of trying this have usually been poor so I avoid it. Very few libraries cater for divisi that I know of in the strings.

    However, if using GPO the idea is to load up patches as per guidelines given in the GPO manual for what the patch is intended for. I recall it saying that the patches labelled 'Solo' shouldn't be used as they likely will not blend.

    And this is what I generally found - most patches, solo or other wise, don't blend. This is why every library has only a range of ensemble patches, and solo instruments for solo's only.

    For divisi passages I've attempted to do this by layering another string ensemble on a unison phrase, and then splitting them both when reaching divisi - the ear hears a thinning of the phrases so it kind of works. Really not the most ideal scenario.

    Other's may have far more luck than me - and successfully created good sounding ensembles from individual instrument patches.

    You can load individual patches and assign them to the same midi channel. You'll then get them all performing from one track. But this too presents problems - possible phasing, and not being able to manually tweak the instruments so they aren't all exactly​ the same.

    Disclaimer - I've very very picky about my string sound quality - so you might get results you're happy with by layering.
    Website:
    www.grahamplowman.com
    YouTube Music:
    My Channel
    Twitter:
    @GPComposer
    Facebook:
    Facebook

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Just north of Sydney
    Posts
    272

    Re: Ensemble Building

    G’day,

    In real life, soloists play differently compared to section players. This is clearly reflected in the patches available in GPO. In my view you cannot create a section from solo patches for musical and at times for technical (phasing) reasons.

    Use violin section patches for violin sections. If you wish to double players in the violin section, increase the channel volume (not cc1) by 3 dB. If you wish to half the number of section players, reduce the channel volume by 3 dB. In divisi parts, you are likely to reduce the players for each divisi part. Use the above rule for volume.

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  4. #4

    Re: Ensemble Building

    "In my view you cannot create a section from solo patches for musical and at times for technical (phasing) reasons"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOIlQuJFlEU

    look at this...

  5. #5

    Re: Ensemble Building

    Quote Originally Posted by zephyrus View Post
    Well, I'm impressed with this. Very, very nice! This is what I'd like to see Randy demo in Sonar (hint, hint!). I will give this a go over the weekend!

    Gary
    Serenity Musician Productions (Gary A.)

    Lenovo ThinksStation S30, Windows 10 Professional 64-bit, 20 gig ram, 2 terabyte hd., M-Audio Fast Track, Finale25, Sonar Professional

  6. #6

    Re: Ensemble Building

    Quote Originally Posted by zephyrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by serenitymusician View Post
    Well, I'm impressed with this. Very, very nice! This is what I'd like to see Randy demo in Sonar (hint, hint!). I will give this a go over the weekend!

    Gary
    Well now! That is nothing short of Very Impressive--Thanks for posting the vid, Zephyrus.

    EDIT: After running my own experiment trying to re-create exactly what's done in the vid, spending 12 hours on it, but FAILING miserably -- I'm not able to endorse the way these ensembles were built. More in my later responses on this thread.

    This is what the concept of "ensemble building" was meant to entail, but I've never seen it implemented so thoroughly as in this vid. I think most people who have attempted building ensembles with GPO haven't had this kind of success because they've tried to do it with far fewer instruments.

    In this video, no section patches are being used. He's using 5 instances of ARIA, each fully loaded with 16 instruments. That's a total of 80 instruments to achieve the sound he gets.

    As someone commented on that YouTube page, he must have a "monster computer" to make it work. I'd be curious to see if my machine could handle it, I'll run an experiment.

    The video does a good job of showing everything that was done to make this work. He offsets the timing of each MIDI track copy. He randomizes the triggering of notes. He uses the Var 1 and Var 2 controls. All those steps take care of phasing issues, and also accomplishes the slight "muddying" of performance which gives MIDI recordings more naturalism.

    Gary, I've never attempted anything like what he's showing there. As per the above, I want to experiment with it, just for grins - but I'm not ready to commit to the time it would take to demonstrate the whole process in Sonar. HOWEVER - I've looked at the video twice now, and most everything he does there can be done in Sonar. Music software programs are all so similar, and do basically the same things. One big ingredient to what he achieves in the vid is using the "Zynewave" reverb plug-in - the product made by the company that posted the vid. It has stereo stage positioning, like in Altiverb. What he does with the reverb would call for the most adaptation if a user didn't have a similar plug-in.

    But even without the finishing touch of that particular reverb unit - this would sound great. If someone wants to try this out, but doesn't have a computer that can run 80 instruments in real time, - each section could be done separately, then rendered to audio before moving on, to conserve CPU power.

    INTERESTING!--- Guess we know rather for sure now that we can't say "ensemble building" can't work.--!

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: Ensemble Building

    Most of my larger orchestrated pieces are done this way. It is time consuming and you have to watch the detail and not get in a hurry. I have done it, as Randy suggested, a section at a time and committed that section to audio files. My latest machine has not give the slightest hesitation with 60 plus tracks or more yet so I think 80 or more is feasible, just haven't done it yet.

    The video goes into excellent detail. Some of this was explained a few years ago in some threads. It was quite the topic back around 2006-07, but that was before ARIA.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  8. #8

    Re: Ensemble Building

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post

    But even without the finishing touch of that particular reverb unit - this would sound great. If someone wants to try this out, but doesn't have a computer that can run 80 instruments in real time, - each section could be done separately, then rendered to audio before moving on, to conserve CPU power.

    INTERESTING!--- Guess we know rather for sure now that we can't say "ensemble building" can't work.--!

    Randy
    I've running here a 150+ track garritan full ochestra (16violins,12 violas,8 celli,6basses,various woods and brasses, percussion etc) with the same single instruments setup on a i5 processor at 35%! It's no problem.
    Working with reaperx64 and protools.

    I also have not enough time in the moment to totally explain it per video (perhaps in a few weeks i can upload something helpful).

    For now, i can help out those who want to try ensemble building with my orchestra section patches, every patch goes to a single instance of gpo4 aria player

    https://rapidshare.com/files/1727636069/Orchestra.zip


  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Just north of Sydney
    Posts
    272

    Re: Ensemble Building

    G’day,

    I think, we would all agree that this is beautiful music. Many would also say this is the sound we have come accustomed to and love. Others, specifically music lovers who attend life concerts, are likely to say that the recording is un-natural synthetic and muddy. Excessive amounts of reverb cover up much of the original sound of the instruments and technical deficiencies. To many, excessive reverb is like a drug. The more, the greater the high.

    Randy said:

    “ … He offsets the timing of each MIDI track copy. He randomizes the triggering of notes. He uses the Var 1 and Var 2 controls. All those steps take care of phasing issues… “

    This is not so. What is termed phasing are ill effects created by mixing of identical or near identical sounds. The ill effects are new tones we hear, created by sums and differences of the near identical sounds and its deviation from each other. These new tones are not harmonic in nature.

    The creator of the video masters midi editing well.


    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  10. #10

    Re: Ensemble Building

    I saw that video before - but only recalling it now watching it again.


    It is very impressive, but I'd be interested in hearing the results from a piece with no sordino strings and without so much muddy reverb.
    Website:
    www.grahamplowman.com
    YouTube Music:
    My Channel
    Twitter:
    @GPComposer
    Facebook:
    Facebook

Go Back to forum

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •