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Topic: 32/64-bit plug-in question

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  1. #1

    Question 32/64-bit plug-in question

    I'm looking into a couple of convolution reverb programs, specifically Altiverb and Origami. Both appear to be 32-bit, so this brings up a question:

    My DAW is the 64-bit version of Sonar 8.5. So far the only VST plug-in I've been using is ARIA 64-bit, so no problem there. My question is will 32-bit plug-ins work with Sonar, or is there a compatiblity issue because my DAW is operating in the 64-bit environment?

    This is completely new territory for me, so I'd appreciate hearing from anyone having experience with the matter. It doesn't have to be with Altiverb or Origami in particular (although that would be nice), just using a 32-bit plug-in with a 64-bit DAW.

    Thanks!

    Steve
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  2. #2

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    If i correctly remember, Sonar has a "bridge" that allow you to use 32 bit plugins without problem. You can ask in their forum anyway. The advantage of 64 bit version of plugins is, mainly, the no limit of ram. With 32bit plugins you are limited to 2gb of ram i believe, and with 64 bit you dont have that limitation.
    Marcelo Colina

  3. #3

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    I am also working in 64bit SONAR on a 64bit machine (Windows Pro 7 64bit). Be aware that SOME 32bit plug-ins work with bitbridge (included in SONAR) or jbridge but some DO NOT.

    This is one reason I hesitate to invest in Altiverb at this time. There are posts on the SONAR forum about this and many are waiting to see if Altiverb will go 64bit in a new release. If it does I will probably buy it unless the cost skyrockets. DPDAN has convinced me that the graphic stage-placement thing is the best way to go ultimately.

    This is also one reason I chose Reverberate 64bit. It was one of the very few 64bit convolution reverbs I could find that I liked (soundwise and pricewise).

    [BTW SONAR will call bitbridge automatically for you - you don't need to go thru any loading or signal routing or anything]

    Hope that helped.
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  4. #4

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    Quote Originally Posted by reberclark View Post
    I am also working in 64bit SONAR on a 64bit machine (Windows Pro 7 64bit). Be aware that SOME 32bit plug-ins work with bitbridge (included in SONAR) or jbridge but some DO NOT.

    This is one reason I hesitate to invest in Altiverb at this time. There are posts on the SONAR forum about this and many are waiting to see if Altiverb will go 64bit in a new release. If it does I will probably buy it unless the cost skyrockets. DPDAN has convinced me that the graphic stage-placement thing is the best way to go ultimately.

    This is also one reason I chose Reverberate 64bit. It was one of the very few 64bit convolution reverbs I could find that I liked (soundwise and pricewise).

    [BTW SONAR will call bitbridge automatically for you - you don't need to go thru any loading or signal routing or anything]

    Hope that helped.
    Now that you mention it, bitbridge does sound familiar, but I really appreciate your caution about Altiverb. I'll have to look into this further before I make a decision, so I'll do a little more homework.

    While I'm at it, I'm going to e-mail Audio Ease and ask them when a 64-bit version of Altiverb is coming out. Unless they're horribly behind the curve (which I doubt -- they seem to be really "with it"), I'm sure Audio Ease has 64-bit Altiverb in the works. If its release is imminent (as in the next 6 months), I may just wait. Although I seem to be the only one on the forum who thinks so, I'm finding Ambience with Stereo Stage in ARIA to be a very decent-sounding reverb, and I have no problem using it as a stopgap until I can graduate to convolution reverb, whether it be Altiverb, Origami, or something else.

    I'm glad you mentioned Reverberate. I dismissed it initially because it doesn't have Altiverb's stage placement capability. However, now that I know Reverberate is 64-bit, I think its' $75 price tag would make it a very good alternative if Audio Ease is going to make us wait an indefinite period of time for a 64-bit version of their product. (Ah, decisions, decisions! )

    Anyway, your response was most helpful, so thank you muchly!

    Edit -- I just checked the Sonar forum, and by the user reports I saw there, Altiverb DOES NOT work with the 64-bit version of Sonar. Now it's up to Audio Ease to come out with a 64-bit version of their product.

    Steve
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  5. #5

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    Quote Originally Posted by marce View Post
    If i correctly remember, Sonar has a "bridge" that allow you to use 32 bit plugins without problem. You can ask in their forum anyway. The advantage of 64 bit version of plugins is, mainly, the no limit of ram. With 32bit plugins you are limited to 2gb of ram i believe, and with 64 bit you dont have that limitation.
    Actually, the RAM limit with 32-bit is 4 GB. Either way, though, if you have to cross that barrier, 32-bit plug-ins are definitely going to be a problem. (This is the same issue with notation programs. I use Finale, and apparently MakeMusic doesn't even have plans for a 64-bit version yet!)

    Steve
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  6. #6

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    This is an interesting conversation. I was led to believe (or I interpreted) that 64 bit was becoming the standard. Why limit yourself to 4 gigs of ram when you can have much much more. I have 12 gigs, but if Finale is just compatible with 64 bit and is really only 32 bit than it is loading my GPO and JaBB samples in a small space of 4 gigs (actually 3.53 gigs is available in 32 bit OSes). That defeats the purpose of having a ton of ram.

    Sorry, I rant.

    Sonar is native 64 bit, correct? So, at least in Sonar, I have all that ram available.

    reberclark said:

    This is also one reason I chose Reverberate 64bit. It was one of the very few 64bit convolution reverbs I could find that I liked (soundwise and pricewise).
    And before I get to nit-picking, reberclark, do you find it easy to use? Do you have to twist all those dials and move all those sliders?

    Now for my comment on Reverberate 64 bit by LiquidSonic - Sorry Steve, but this is an OT inside of your OT

    I looked into that today. It sounds like a good deal (reading the descriptions and all), so I downloaded it as a Demo (it gives me 30 days before I need to register it). I did take a semester class at a local College and the class was held in a real recording studio (not a classroom). It has been a few years since I had the class (just when studios were thinking about going digital). That course, obviously, does not make me an engineer. I tested out reverberate by LiquidSonic and it seems to do a nice job. It doesn't have the GUI of Altiverb and you can't move instruments around in the stereo field (as far as I could deduce). The sound of the reverb is better than what I have been using. But it's interface lacks a whole lot! I don't want to get lost in number crunching and IR1 filter or IR2 filter ect. It is confusing and I am not sure if I need to be worried about moving sliders and rotating dials to get the reverb to sound good. The manual read like an engineer's guideline. The plugin is really not very user friendly.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  7. #7

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    Quote Originally Posted by RichR View Post
    Sonar is native 64 bit, correct? So, at least in Sonar, I have all that ram available.


    reberclark said:

    And before I get to nit-picking, reberclark, do you find it easy to use? Do you have to twist all those dials and move all those sliders?

    Now for my comment on Reverberate 64 bit by LiquidSonic - Sorry Steve, but this is an OT inside of your OT

    I looked into that today. It sounds like a good deal (reading the descriptions and all), so I downloaded it as a Demo (it gives me 30 days before I need to register it). I did take a semester class at a local College and the class was held in a real recording studio (not a classroom). It has been a few years since I had the class (just when studios were thinking about going digital). That course, obviously, does not make me an engineer. I tested out reverberate by LiquidSonic and it seems to do a nice job. It doesn't have the GUI of Altiverb and you can't move instruments around in the stereo field (as far as I could deduce). The sound of the reverb is better than what I have been using. But it's interface lacks a whole lot! I don't want to get lost in number crunching and IR1 filter or IR2 filter ect. It is confusing and I am not sure if I need to be worried about moving sliders and rotating dials to get the reverb to sound good. The manual read like an engineer's guideline. The plugin is really not very user friendly.
    Whew...Okay here we go!


    There are two versions of SONAR - 32bit and 64bit. I am working in 64bit. However they both work just fine (I am not using SONAR X1 however).

    Yes, the LiquidSonics interface is VERY dense and confusing. The manual was no help to me. I was back and forth with their support every day for about a week until I relaxed enough to not sweat all those dials.

    What I do is load an instance of Reverberate. I then select (under topology - see top red circle below) "true stereo." I then select my desired IR from several sources - Perfect Space, the presets that came with Reverberate OR Samplicity IRs which I downloaded from Samplicity's site. They came recommended by the LiquidSonics folks because the samples are good and the utilize the "true stereo" design. Some IRs do not - however those still sound very good.



    Anyway - I tried fiddling with all the knobs and whatever in Reverberate and for me it seems best just to leave em alone. For "stage placement" I use the pans in SONAR for left/right positioning and I load a few instances of Reverberate for different stage positions front to back (near front, center, rear etc). This is based on a routing technique graciously shared by DPDAN. Combining these two, I can place each instrument fairly well in space. Reverberate has very low CPU usage (not like Perfect Space) and I can run four easily at a time.

    But IT'S NOT ALTIVERB. I would prefer Altiverb's setup and ease of use, believe me! But Altiverb is not 64bit as yet so I chose Reverberate.

    I hope that helped.

    EDIT: I just found out that if you purchase the 64bit license you can also use that license for their 32bit version. I had an issue where Sound Forge would not recognize the 64bit version of Reverberate.
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  8. #8

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    Technically, Marcelo was correct when he said there are only 2 GB RAM available to a 32-bit VST or any other 32-bit program like Finale under a 64-bit operating system.

    The other 2 GB are reserved for the 32-bit system DLLs and Windows will not let you use them.

    The 32-bit virtual machine that is created for 32-bit processes under 64-bit Windows is indeed 4 GB in size, but only 2 GB of that space is for user processes, while the other 2 GB is reserved for 32-bit system (kernel) processes, which is exactly the same division as if you were using a real 32-bit operating system.

    Reference: "Windows Via C/C++" by Jeffery Richter and Christophe Nasarre, Pages 373-375 (Microsoft Press).

    There is a way to wrangle 3 GB of usable space for 32-bit applications like Finale and VST plug-ins, but only on a 32-bit version of Windows. It does not work on 64-bit Windows.
    Arvid Hand
    Theory-Comp./Piano
    ASCAP

  9. #9

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    Quote Originally Posted by RichR View Post
    This is an interesting conversation. I was led to believe (or I interpreted) that 64 bit was becoming the standard. Why limit yourself to 4 gigs of ram when you can have much much more. I have 12 gigs, but if Finale is just compatible with 64 bit and is really only 32 bit than it is loading my GPO and JaBB samples in a small space of 4 gigs (actually 3.53 gigs is available in 32 bit OSes). That defeats the purpose of having a ton of ram.
    Well, 64-bit is becoming the standard, and I'm rather miffed that MakeMusic seems so nonchalant about meeting it. If they don't even have a native 64-bit version of Finale in development yet, I can see the value of its Human Playback features evaporating when you find yourself being forced over to a DAW just for the sake of being able to work with all the VST instruments and plug-ins you need. I share your frustration!

    Sonar is native 64 bit, correct? So, at least in Sonar, I have all that ram available.
    When I purchased Sonar 8.5 in December, the DVD included the installs for both 32- and 64-bit. But yes, if you did the 64-bit install, then Sonar is running natively in that environment.

    I tested out reverberate by LiquidSonic and it seems to do a nice job. It doesn't have the GUI of Altiverb and you can't move instruments around in the stereo field (as far as I could deduce). The sound of the reverb is better than what I have been using. But it's interface lacks a whole lot! I don't want to get lost in number crunching and IR1 filter or IR2 filter ect. It is confusing and I am not sure if I need to be worried about moving sliders and rotating dials to get the reverb to sound good. The manual read like an engineer's guideline. The plugin is really not very user friendly.
    I'm right there with you, Rich -- I have precious little time to work on music as it is, and it sounds like Reverberate may come with more of a learning curve than I'd want to take on. However, I'm glad reberclark gave us some pointers based on his experience. I won't write Reverberate off yet, but at this point a lot hinges on what kind of answer I get from Audio Ease about whether or not they have a 64-bit version of Altiverb coming out soon.

    Anyway, the input on my original question was very helpful, so thanks to all of you for your informative responses!

    Steve
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  10. #10

    Re: 32/64-bit plug-in question

    Hello Steve,

    I also have Windows 64 bit and use Sonar 8.5, Altiverb and Finale 2011. My computer has 8 gigs of RAM.

    I run the 32 bit version of Sonar so that I can use Altiverb. For me, there is no convolution reverb currently available that is as good as Altiverb. I prefer to go 32 bit with Sonar rather than compromise on my choice of CR; it has to be Altiverb. I have absoutely no problems at all with this setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Johnson View Post
    .....

    While I'm at it, I'm going to e-mail Audio Ease and ask them when a 64-bit version of Altiverb is coming out. Unless they're horribly behind the curve (which I doubt -- they seem to be really "with it"), I'm sure Audio Ease has 64-bit Altiverb in the works. If its release is imminent (as in the next 6 months), I may just wait. .....
    Edit -- I just checked the Sonar forum, and by the user reports I saw there, Altiverb DOES NOT work with the 64-bit version of Sonar. Now it's up to Audio Ease to come out with a 64-bit version of their product.

    Steve
    There is an ongoing thread over at the Altiverb (Audioease) forums on Altiverb 7 which will offer 64 bit. As Aram says in his replies, they are not announcing any release date yet.

    http://www.audioease.com/cgi-bin/for...num=1273996232
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

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