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Topic: Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

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  1. #1

    Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

    I had this posted under another forum subtopic., but I got no response so I've moved it here.

    I hope someone here can provide assistance or a step by step procedure on using Aria as a multi-channel instrument in Pro-Tools. I'm really starting to think there is something broken with Aria in Protools.

    ==============================================

    Hey folks,

    I've been trying for days to figure out how the internal routing for Aria works in Protools. Just upgraded to PT9.

    Background:

    I'm at the point now that I've used Aria/ Protools and Sibelius for a while, and I'm trying to create standard templates in Sibelius and inside Protools to make my life easier and I'm finding strange things with respect to routing paths.

    It seems that when I create a multi-channel instance of Aria in an instrument track, I can't get access to all 16 channels. There is an apparent conflict with not just stereo pair 1/2 but also, I can't load a patch into the first slot and then send that signal to a separate Audio track. All the others slots starting with the 2nd slot work fine. This is a common way to use the multi-channel RTAS plugins. I imagine VST is similar.

    I find the manuals very weak on the subject of routing.

    It would be really great if someone could point me to a document that clearly explains the analog signal paths.

    What I've been able to see so far:

    1) channel pair 1/2 is somehow in common use with the Ambience engine in GPO.

    2) If I assign the first slot to 1/2 and I switch off reverb, then nothing makes it out.

    3) I can make 15 of the slots work as I expect

    4) another plugin in Protools seems to suffer the same symptoms so I'm not sure if it's a protools 9 thing or not.

    I imagine that the developers have a "wiring" diagram for the system that would clearly illustrate the limitations in various DAWs.

    Can someone confirm:

    1) Aria Multi-channel works as 16 separate Analog channels in Protools 9?
    2) that the internal effects bus in Aria ( Ambience plugin) is hard wired to Analog 1/2"
    3) if there is a manual or tech-note that clearly explains the "analog" signal paths"


    Thanks for any advice, help files ... perhaps a books that explains this.

    Alain

  2. #2

    Re: Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

    Hi BigAlain

    There is a lot of info your giving is it possible to use pictures with your problem it may help some one to understand whats going on,



    Good luck



    novaburst



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  3. #3

    Re: Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

    Thanks novaburst

    I've done a lot of investigating and I have pretty much solved my own problem.

    I created a document that explains the issues for the benefit of anyone who comes across this issue as well for those that created this great product - if they feel like making some tweaks to the design to correct some shortcomings.

    The link is posted below. As you can see I put some considerable effort in trying to explain the issue. It's hard to explain when dealing with the interaction of products from different companies.

    Here's the summary.

    ARIAL multichannel version maintains the link between the first track (instrument ) as well the Ambience output with the Master Fader in Pro-Tools.

    This means that you can't truly get 16 channels of dedicated outputs. The first lane is always reserved. Why? Don't know. It makes no sense at all for a multi-instrument.

    If you decide to the use the Multi- version of the plugin in Protools, you must not use the first instrument track. The behavior of this instrument track with respect to routing is so different from the remaining 15 tracks that you will encounter problems with signals not being routed where you expect them to be routed.

    This is a workaround and I truly hope that this design is corrected in future versions. I'm not able at the moment to determine if this behavior was also present in Pro-Tools 8 or earlier or with previous versions of ARIA.

    updated: file 12/4/2010
    https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B2a...ut=list&num=50


    thanks again for the offer to help.

    Alain
    Last edited by BigAlain123; 12-04-2010 at 12:37 PM. Reason: updated attachment

  4. #4

    Re: Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

    I'll take a look, thanks for doing that.

    With me, I cannot even get an instrument into the second slot and the times I did I could only trigger one instrument at a time.

    I was wondering what the point was.....how you were expected to load a full orchestra into the player. I was actually getting ready to post this question because I was sure it was me doing something retarded.

    I am also PT9. I noticed this in PT8 though.

    As a casual user, I have never been able to get GPO to work well in Pro Tools.
    2.66GHz MacPro Quad|6GB RAM|OSX10.6.4| 2.4 GHz MacBook Pro|4GB RAM|OSX 10.6.4|Pro Tools 9 w/CPTK|Digi 002R, Eleven Rack, MBox2 Mini|Garritan-GPO4, J&BB| Reason 4|Spectrasonics-Omnisphere, Stylus RMX, Trilian|Drumcore3, Discrete Drums|Toontrack-Superior Drummer, EZ Drummer|Sibelius 6|Izotope-Ozone4, RX2|String Studio|EastWest-Silk, VOP, Symphonic Choirs, RA, Gypsy, Stormdrum2, Fab Four|Reaper|

  5. #5

    Re: Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

    Wow, how the heck did you figure all that out?

    Very nicely done, I'll go putz with it tomorrow when I get in the studio.

    Excellent presentation.

    Again, thanks for taking the time to do that.

    Oh I don't know if this is in any way similar but Stylus RMX always holds on to the first track. So if you load a multi instance on an instrument track and then want to get individual tracks you have to create more MIDI tracks. So a 5 part multi, you would have the main instrument track and then create 4 more MIDI tracks and send the parts 2,3,4,5 there. From there you create the audio tracks you want to send to.

    But even though the Multi is loaded in the instrument, the first part in the multi stays in the instrument track, the rest can be sent to the new MIDI tracks.

    I do not know if this has any value at all here, I am not up on this stuff at all.
    2.66GHz MacPro Quad|6GB RAM|OSX10.6.4| 2.4 GHz MacBook Pro|4GB RAM|OSX 10.6.4|Pro Tools 9 w/CPTK|Digi 002R, Eleven Rack, MBox2 Mini|Garritan-GPO4, J&BB| Reason 4|Spectrasonics-Omnisphere, Stylus RMX, Trilian|Drumcore3, Discrete Drums|Toontrack-Superior Drummer, EZ Drummer|Sibelius 6|Izotope-Ozone4, RX2|String Studio|EastWest-Silk, VOP, Symphonic Choirs, RA, Gypsy, Stormdrum2, Fab Four|Reaper|

  6. #6

    Re: Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

    Hi Lister,

    I'm glad you found it useful.

    I've posted an updated attachment - in my hurry and lack of sleep I totally forgot to proof read this thing and ended up with a load of spelling mistakes - Arial versus ARIA.

    I can normally live with that, but misspelling the name of the product was something that I needed to correct (46 times. yikes ).

    re. your comment about Stylus RMX.

    It's a pain when a Multi is hard coded to use anything on the output. All multi instruments should virtualize the output paths so that the user can assign them to wherever he/she chooses. It's ok to permit the Multi to use a master track as in Pro-tools because you can always disable the output in the Pro-tools instrument track. It's not ok to exclude sending the first track to a virtualized output for routing. I think it's just a bug in the implementation and easy enough to fix.

    I've seen some examples cited in the note above, where the manufactures understand this and provide a dedicated path for all instrument patches.

    Also with Stylus RMX and Pro-tools. I'm not familiar with this plug-in but I would strongly recommend not using the Instrument track to host a Midi channel. In your example, you added 4 additional Midi tracks and the 1 in the instrument track makes 5. The potential problem with that is that in Pro-Tools and other DAWS, you can write automation information into the Midi Track. If that automation information sits in the Multi-Instrument midi track, then you could potentially be applying the automation to all instruments loaded into the Multi. I would suggest that you create 5 separate Midi tracks and leave the instrument track empty.

    Regards

    Alain

  7. #7

    Re: Routing analog paths in Protools - need help when using in Pro-tools

    Okay thanks. I will have to take a look at that in Stylus. I still have not had a chance to go try the Aria method you posted.....it was putting up the exterior Christmas lights today.

    By the way, to the board Admin or Moderators.

    When I open a Reply pane, the top margin of the actual text window, where you would type your first line, overlaps the "toolbar" there. Where it has Bold, Italics, Underline etc etc etc. The border line runs right through the middle of that.
    2.66GHz MacPro Quad|6GB RAM|OSX10.6.4| 2.4 GHz MacBook Pro|4GB RAM|OSX 10.6.4|Pro Tools 9 w/CPTK|Digi 002R, Eleven Rack, MBox2 Mini|Garritan-GPO4, J&BB| Reason 4|Spectrasonics-Omnisphere, Stylus RMX, Trilian|Drumcore3, Discrete Drums|Toontrack-Superior Drummer, EZ Drummer|Sibelius 6|Izotope-Ozone4, RX2|String Studio|EastWest-Silk, VOP, Symphonic Choirs, RA, Gypsy, Stormdrum2, Fab Four|Reaper|

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