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Topic: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

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  1. #1

    Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Though my entry was the only entry, through the rules, it has been deemed the winning entry. I thought, as did some other members of the forum, that putting it in its own topic and allowing forum members a chance at hearing my presentation, it would generate some listenings and comments.

    Refer to the challenge 25 post for the theme and instructions presented by Ian (challenge 24 winner).

    Challenge 25

    Since I was the only entry, I along with others think that a discussion of what we are looking for in this challenge as well as time frame for writing the challenge need to be discussed. For instance, "Is this a viable challenge anymore?"; "Is there interest in doing this challenge?"; "What are forum members thoughts on this type of challenge". These and any suggestions as well as comments on my resolution of Ian's presentation are more than welcome in this discussion.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  2. #2

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Hi, Rich - Thanks for starting this thread. We've had some good discussion about your work on the other thread, maybe there'll be more on this one.

    A few months ago when I was starting a challenge, there was an informal poll taken, and though there weren't a lot of responses, there was practically a unanimous agreement that the Challenge as originally set up by Sean is still the preference. We'd been through various challenge types, including setting notes to only a rhythm, using some obscure scales, and in this one people were asked to compose a B answering section to the posted A.

    So for one thing, I think it would be good if the next Challenge went back to the very basics - posting a complete theme passage, and asking people to develop it in any way they want, using any instrumentation they want, as long as those instruments are from their Garritan collection.

    There - it's a start on some more discussion. I jump to the form the Challenge could take, because for me there's no question that this is an event that should continue!

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Now, that's what I'm talking about! Discussion, discussion, discussion.

    Thanks for getting the musical note moving, Randy. I too am in favor of the original concept but probably a little more so. It was originally an Orchestration Challenge to show off what the Garritan line of samples could do and perform. Orchestration can be defined many ways, but to me (and only to me since everyone is different and has learned music in different fashions) orchestration means using instruments in a ensemble to present a piece of music. The best orchestrations live on as famous works and are masterfully crafted. A masterfully constructed melody with harmony is only a start. It is what the composer or orchestrator does with that music that brings out the gem that is within.

    And by no stretch of the imagination am I a master of any of this. This is my avocation and my retirement fun. I learn as much from every piece that I encounter in this forum and beyond than I can ever hope to do myself. But it is the challenge of the attempts that I enjoy and the potential learning that brings me back to try and try again. After all, I am of the belief that "You Can Teach An Old Dog New Tricks!"
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  4. #4

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Quote Originally Posted by RichR View Post
    Now, that's what I'm talking about! Discussion, discussion, discussion...
    Right on, Rich. We're on the same page, and from what people said before, I think the rest of the membership are too. The Challenge is to orchestrate a theme as thoroughly as one knows how. That leaves it wide open to accommodate people's level of expertise as well as their taste. That's a challenge appealing to everyone here, at least in theory.

    I've joined in on many of these challenges, because I've always found it a good change-of-pace project that gets me away from my own projects, and that can be very welcome. I haven't joined in recently because, good heavens, I think I've "won" four of the rounds now, and that's more than plenty. I'd like more people to join in no matter what level of experience they're at, without counting themselves out of the running even before they try.

    I hope you start thinking of a theme to post pretty soon so all the musical thinking caps around here can start working on the challenge.

    What we're up against is the generally low level of participation here at the Forum that's been going on for quite awhile now. We know there are several reasons for that. But those of us most involved can't give it up and add to the problem. We should all keep doing what we can to stir interest in this really unique bulletin board Gary provides for us.

    SO - here's to The Orchestration Challenge!

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    I think it would be good if the next Challenge went back to the very basics - posting a complete theme passage, and asking people to develop it in any way they want, using any instrumentation they want, as long as those instruments are from their Garritan collection.
    That makes a lot of sense to me, too. That is precisely the kind of assignments we had in college orchestration courses that I took. I was assigned, for example, the opening theme (first four bars) of "The Star Spangled Banner" in one class, but it sure didn't sound like that by the time I finished with it!!! (I created a piece with 1 flute, 1 alto sax, 1 trombone, a tambourine and my trumpet.) It does make for a whole lot of fun, and I believe it will generate more interest.

    Deadlines, though, I think need some more discussion. A lot of people don't have a great deal of time to spend on challenges like this... just to get the discussion started...

    Plus, we are still in the midst of an economic depression (the word "recession" is silly... it's a depression).

    And congratulations to RichR for having the wherewithal to submit the lone entry.

    Arvid
    Arvid Hand
    Theory-Comp./Piano
    ASCAP

  6. #6

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Again, congratulations Rich, on a very good interpretation of the challenge.

    I did like the challenge, but it wasn't an easy one. Do you think that might have put people off? If so, the other forum members should chime in and try to explain what would have made them enter. For me, it was time (as I explained before). There was just not enough of it to pull off a worthy entry. The challenge was also difficult, but I liked that; and I thought it was a pretty good theme too. I felt it could be interpreted in a million ways. But going back to a stricter format would probably be just as interesting, but might be easier and draw more interest.

    So, what was it? Complexity? Time? A combination? Something else? None of the above? Hoping for some honest answers...
    Theo

  7. #7

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    I'm probably going to incur some wrath, or perhaps righteous indignation, but I have not yet submitted an entry to any of the challenges because, well, the original rules are just a bit too limiting to me.

    I do understand that one of the goals of these challenges is to showcase Garritan libraries. However, I have never limited myself to Garritan libraries for anything I've done - and it isn't that I have a huge collection of libraries, but I do have a few that predate GPO and JABB, and I like them. And not using them would be unnatural for me.

    I also can appreciate that a library as compact, and priced as nicely as GPO probably does have some areas where it may not compete with libraries costing many times more, and occupying a lot more disk space! That means that a direct comparison between an orchestration done with GPO and an orchestration done with some behemoth could be skewed by the presence of additional articulations or microphone positions or whatever.

    So it isn't that I do not "get it" or even appreciate the reasons behind the rules. And I have tried, a couple of times, to use only Garritan products (I own GPO, JABB, Strad, Gofriller, and even GOS). But ultimately I find that I still want to use other tools, or worse, play things live (heaven forbid<G>!)

    Ironically, I had to do a mock-up several years ago, just before Gofriller was released, and I used only the solo Cello and Flute instruments from what was probably GPO2. And it turned out better than I'd expect. In fact, I've since re-done several of the pieces with Gofriller and the difference was pretty startling, but I've yet to find a solo flute that could compete, in that setting, with GPO.

    Would I submit an entry if I could use other libraries in conjunction with the Garritan libraries? Probably, as that would better represent what I am doing right now. But I'd also understand the difficulty it would present!

    I picked up KH Diamond this past winter, and there are string sections in there that are just amazing, and if I used them it might make it more difficult to make an apples to apples comparison with an arrangement made with only GPO. (Note - that's my ears, my loudspeakers, my tastes all playing into that very subjective judgment!)

    I'll also point out that even with my non-GPO tools I have yet to create a mockup that sounds as good, or moves me as much as some that I have heard here. The final result is a combination of the tastes and talents of the composer or arranger, the tools, the knowledge of the tools, and the material itself.

    That's a lot of variables! And yeah, I didn't claim to have a solution, just a viewpoint<G>...
    Bill Thompson
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF

  8. #8

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    wst3ae said:

    I'm probably going to incur some wrath, or perhaps righteous indignation, but I have not yet submitted an entry to any of the challenges because, well, the original rules are just a bit too limiting to me.
    No wrath nor indignation for your comments. They are honest and sincere. What you are suggesting though is something for other forums. There are forums for composition alone and they require no specific library or limit on how your music is prepare (even [gasp!!] live).

    It is that this forum was set up for GPO users and now, with the additional libraries, JaBB and CoMB, they are part of the Garritan Sample library as well. This forum was set up for Garritan Libraries and how they are used and showcased. I think that is fair of Gary and company to provide us with the space to pursue these adventures.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  9. #9

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Quote Originally Posted by wst3ae View Post
    ... However, I have never limited myself to Garritan libraries for anything I've done - ...Would I submit an entry if I could use other libraries in conjunction with the Garritan libraries? Probably, as that would better represent what I am doing right now. But I'd also understand the difficulty it would present!...
    Hi, Bill - Thanks for talking about why you haven't joined in on the Challenges up to this point.

    I think perhaps you're over-looking the main point of these Challenges, and that's to present a piece of music - an arrangement/composition/orchestration. While I'm definitely all for people producing their recordings to the best of their ability, not neglecting the mixing and processing that goes into a good audio recording, the main and most important ingredient in these Challenges is what people write.

    If we were a more strictly academic group, we could have these challenges set up so that people just submit written scores. That would strip things down to the music itself, without the "interference" of judging how successful someone was with their recording, what we think about the samples they've used etc.

    If someone has GPO, they have the entire orchestra, and as you said, very good sounding recordings can be made just with GPO. So besides the fact that it only makes sense to only use Garritan instruments on the Garritan Forum, nobody's at a disadvantage from only using GPO. All of the instruments are quite capable of providing a good demo of someone's work.

    So, I hope you re-think your position on this. This event isn't primarily about showing off how we can produce recordings, it's about how we can arrange music.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: Challenge 25 Winning Entry

    Quote Originally Posted by RichR View Post
    No wrath nor indignation for your comments. They are honest and sincere. What you are suggesting though is something for other forums. There are forums for composition alone and they require no specific library or limit on how your music is prepare (even [gasp!!] live).

    It is that this forum was set up for GPO users and now, with the additional libraries, JaBB and CoMB, they are part of the Garritan Sample library as well. This forum was set up for Garritan Libraries and how they are used and showcased. I think that is fair of Gary and company to provide us with the space to pursue these adventures.
    I agree with all of that, to a point. I'll even stipulate that sometimes it is fun to place artificial limits on a project just to see what comes of it.

    Is there anyone here that is selling their work using just the Garritan Libraries on a regular basis? I'd be surprised if there is, but I won't rule it out. One can do amazing things with GPO and JABB... but it just seems odd to limit yourself to just that.

    The reason I bothered to even bring this up again (I was suitably chastised a long time ago for uttering such heresy<G>) is that I don't think many folks work with only these libraries, and I think we all miss out on some wonderful efforts because these folks self-select themselves out of the competition. I also think it's a bit of a loss for all of us because there are some truly talented, and generous folks here, and it would be interesting to get their input.

    This is also (usually) one of the least antagonistic communities on the web. There are other forums, but they are populated largely by professionals with tons of experience and long demo reels, and they are not always kind to newcomers.

    Needless to say, I still lurk here, and I offer my thoughts when I think they might be helpful, and I don't take it personally that projects that use multiple libraries and even (gasp again) live players are not welcome to submit to the challenges. In fact, I very often download the material for the challenges, especially the video challenges, and have fun with them.
    Bill Thompson
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF

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