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Topic: Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

  1. #1

    Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

    Can I, or not?


    This tutorial does exactly what I learned not to do (the official manual says do not!)

  2. #2

    Re: Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuddhaMaster View Post
    Can I, or not?


    This tutorial does exactly what I learned not to do (the official manual says do not!)
    BuddhaMaster --

    In 2005, Tom Hopkins wrote this in another forum:

    "The solo patches are, for the most part, chromatically sampled instruments and, as the name implies, are intended to be used primarily for solo work. The "Plr" patches use fewer samples, are derived from their corresponding solo instruments, and do not contain any samples in common with other "Plr" instruments derived from the same solo instrument. There are three "Plr" instruments derived from most solo instruments. This allows the three derived "Plr" instruments to be used together without encountering phasing problems. "Plr" instruments are intended for ensemble building purposes."

    I'm going to do some more research to see if I can find a clearer answer for you, but from the above, it is my humble interpretation that, although you can, I suppose, use a solo patch on top of the player patches, but if you do so, you are likely to encounter some phasing problems because the player patches were designed to play in phase with each other by altering the same patches used for the solo instrument. In other words, the solo patches are tailored to work together chromatically, and there are a lot more of them than there are in the player patches. Since the player patches use fewer of the samples from the solo instrument, that means there is a gap in which the solo instrument could conceivably play some notes that would not be in phase with the altered samples used in the player patches.

    There are two other possibilities for the conflict you have brought out: (1) Either the tutorial is older and out of date, or (2) the manual was revised but that statement on Page 76 was inadvertently overlooked and not intentionally left in place during the revision. I tend to believe, however, that the manual is correct, and I would not try to use a solo instrument on top of the player patches for that same instrument because of possible conflicts in phasing.

    The tutorial uses the Kontakt Player, and the problem may have more to do with that fact, because I think that when you use pitch bend for the solo instrument, it would apply across the board to also include the player patches in which you would not want to have any pitch bend every time the soloist uses it.

    If this is all clear as mud to you, don't feel alone. I vote for the tutorial being wrong and the manual being right simply because it makes a whole lot more sense to me.

    Please don't get mad at me for taking a stand on the issue, that's just how I see it and I haven't seen anyone else trying to help you with that problem. The use of the solo patch on top of the "Plr" patches may work for that tutorial but would not be applicable for general use, and so the manual warns against it.

    But I will keep researching the issue to see what I can come up with unless someone else beats me to the punch... which is likely at the rate I'm going!

    Good luck and best wishes, too!


    [P.S. Have you checked out my Buddha Meets the Moos-sician yet? It's an orchestral piece.]
    Arvid Hand

  3. #3

    Re: Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

    I just did a little more research, and there is a footnote at the bottom of Page 113 (.PDF) of the manual that says this:

    "Plr instruments do not share samples with each other but must not be used with the solo instruments from which they are derived to avoid phasing problems; e.g. don’t use French horn 1 Plr1*, Plr2*, or Plr3*with French horn 1 (solo)."

    In other words, you CAN use a DIFFERENT solo instrument on top of a group of player patches if they are derived from a different solo instrument.

    The example used says this MUST NOT be done:

    Fr. Horn 1 solo combined with Fr. Horn 1 Plr 1, Plr 2, Plr 3

    but you CAN do this:

    Fr. Horn 1 solo combined with Fr. Horn 2 Plr 1, Plr 2, Plr 3

    Do you see what's happening here? The samples for Fr. Horn 2 Plr 1, Plr 2, Plr 3 are derived from a different solo instrument ( Fr. Horn 2) than the solo instrument they are being combined with (Fr. Horn 1 solo).

    I believe that this is the correct explanation. Someone please tell me I'm wrong if this is not correct.

    I don't see this explanation in the tutorial and I have not thoroughly studied the tutorial, but it now appears to have changed my mind. Both the tutorial and the manual are correct, even though they appear to be in conflict. You simply cannot use "Plr" patches with the same solo patch they were derived from or you will have phasing problems. But you CAN use "Plr" patches that were derived from a different solo instrument.

    It is much clearer to me now that I have thought about it. I hope it looks somewhat clearer to you as well.

    Best wishes,

    Arvid Hand

  4. #4

    Re: Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

    First of all: I feel really flattered to have one put so much work into figuring this out.

    Short solution: combining Solo with player instruments is good, as long as if it's not from the same group!

    I must say this is slightly annoying, since I prefer working with solo instruments, because of the higher complexity, character and tonal quality. Now when I like to double, I have to switch the initial instrument or add instruments from another group- they might have a difference in timbre/character!

    Heres a clear example: working with a Flute 1 'solo', I built myself a nice melody and a nice accompaniment. Now I like to extend the single instruments to groups/ensembles- I would simply add a 'plr' version of the same instrument- Now I just ran into the danger of creating phasing problem, so I must either add instruments from another instrument group (tonal differences), or switch the 'solo' instrument to a 'plr' as well. This might result in a very different sound than it did before- those 'plr' instruments never sound quiet as good as solo do.

    It's sure good to know a final answer. I always go for the solo instruments, so you see when trying to extend from a solo instrument, there might be some additional work to match timbre.

    Nothing against 'plr' instruments sound quality, but they are strictly for ensemble use only.

    Thanks for your research and I hope you learned as much as I did.

  5. #5

    Re: Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

    Thank you for asking that question, BuddhaMaster. Yes, I did learn something important about a problem that I probably would have rushed right into headlong, as I am prone to do, and then spent years trying to figure out why there was a phasing problem! You drew attention to an excellent point that appeared to have conflicting answers between the manual and the tutorial, when they actually were not in conflict after all. However, I felt that no one with the expertise to do so had cleared up that point in an obvious way so that everyone could clearly understand it. Finding the answer in an obscure footnote in not my idea of fun!

    But at least the air is clear now, and we can all breathe freely knowing that, as limited as it is, solo instruments can be used with player instruments as long as they are not derived from the same base set of samples.

    Thank you again, BuddhaMaster...

    Arvid Hand

  6. #6

    Re: Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

    The problem of the internet and technical advantage is, basic stuff gets easily forgotten.
    We put layers of layer of complexity onto everthing, basic tasks are getting rarer, and finally we forget to put a volume knob on a hifi!

  7. #7

    Re: Combining 'solo' with 'plr' - yes or no?

    Thank you both Arvid and BuddhaMaster. You both have saved me a lot of trouble of trying to figure that out. There are a lot of great minds at work in this forum and it is simply amazing.


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