So Disappointed GPO4 & Aria

[SuperReverb]

I Was Working at an outside Studio that used the Garritan Solo Gofriller Cello, and Solo Stradivari Violin, in Kontak4 - So blown away by the control of Expression, I decided to Buy, "What ever Garritan Had To Offer" - As I see the Solo Cello & Violin are not available individually anymore, I bought the Full Orchestra Pro, as it was the "Everything Package".

Now Perhaps I just need Technical Support, which is why I'm posting here, for the benefit of doubt, however...

- I can NOT load this into Kontakt4 - I'm forced to use the ARIA Player in Pro-Tools
- All String Sounds have Default Vibrato on them, and the Mod Wheel acts as a VOLUME - it doesn't seem possible to control the Expression of the sample / Vibrato with the Mod Wheel, which is perhaps the reason the Kontakt4 / Gogriller Solo Cello was so convincing in the 1st place.

Perhaps we can start here, on my Long list of problems, and hopefully i am wrong, and someone just thought it'd be a great default setting to have the Mod Wheel act a s a Volume Control - but if that alone, can't be rectified, this is pretty much a deal breaker, right off the top for this instrument collection / Player / Workflow. and I won't really even bother with the rest of my list.

Anybody set me straight ?

[swinkler]

Welcome to the forum SuperReverb.

The first place to start is with the manual. I'm not being facetious by saying that. Once through the manual and you'll quickly discover controllers in particular aren't "normal" in terms of standard midi spec.

Now the solo strings have been a bit of a weak spot in this library if I may say so. I was thinking they had controllable vibrato, but again a search through the manual will yield that information.

As far as the Aria player goes....well it is Gary's new sample engine so Kontakt will no longer play the samples, but most here think the Aria player is lighter and much more streamlined in use and load on our systems.

I hope this helps. You're welcome to ask any question and I'm sure you'll get an answer but most of your questions would probably be answered more directly by a quick read through the manual.

Steve Winkler

[Haydn]

The Garritan libraries use the ARIA player in place of Kontakt. This helps lower costs to the end user as they aren't paying for licensing for the use of Kontakt. ARIA was needed originally for the Garritan Authorized Steinway to handle custom functions. It was also one of the first 64 bit engines.

The vibrato is part of the samples in GPO. There is no control of vibrato. The Strad and Gofriller were standalone libraries that each cost more than the whole GPO library.

It's probably a good idea as Swinkler mentioned to read the manual. This will explain all the patches and controllers. GPO is setup for quick composing and notation programs. It was designed to run completely in 2 GB of memory so most laptop computer users can compose on the go.

Garritan Orchestral Strings 2 (GOS2) will be released in the future as a full string libraries with solo instruments that have the control of the Strad and Gofriller. Not sure what the timeline is for release.

Jim

[Hannes_F]

- All String Sounds have Default Vibrato on them, and the Mod Wheel acts as a VOLUME - it doesn't seem possible to control the Expression of the sample / Vibrato with the Mod Wheel, which is perhaps the reason the Kontakt4 / Gogriller Solo Cello was so convincing in the 1st place.

GPO vs. these solo strings ... different products, different technology.

[SuperReverb]

Thanks guys... yes I can't really complain about all these sounds for $150.00, it's still a very impressive Library.

Honestly, I had been through the manual before I posted here... it's the first place I took my confusion, I wasn't even aware of this forum, I had to come searching for online help, when I couldn't find the Answers, from the following sections of the Manual.

Modulation Controller CC# 1 – Volume/Timbre
This controller is used to the control volume and timbre characteristics of all sustained/legato solo and ensemble woodwind patches. Playable with your keyboard’s mod wheel or external controller surface, or can also be drawn in your sequencer by hand.

Additional Programming:

Additional Programming: Hidden Vibrato Intensity Controller (Aftertouch)
Many of the non-vibrato solo woodwinds have a hidden vibrato intensity controller to allow the user to apply the level of vibrato to the instrument. The intensity controller controls the level of vibrato. This controller does not apply to the instruments that contain natural vibrato and only applies to instruments that have a non-vibrato choice (shown NV.) This controller has also been added to some instruments that do not normally have vibrato (the clarinet or

French horn.) To be used along with the Vibrato Speed controller CC# 17. This controller can be drawn in by hand or can be activated with a keyboard that has Aftertouch sensitivity.

Vibrato Speed Controller CC# 17
This controller when used in conjunction with the vibrato intensity controller will vary the vibrato speed of those instruments that normally contain no vibrato. As before, this would not affect instruments that have natural vibrato and will apply only to non-vibrato patches (shown NV.) To be used along with the Vibrato Intensity Controller (aftertouch).

Again, these are all "Hardwired Operations" of this product, there is no information on Disabling, modifying, or reprograming the mod Wheel, from controlling the Volume of the samples.

Between my controller, Pro-Tools, and the ARIA application, there are about 11 different ways to control, and program Volume - The Mod wheel is not really needed for this. I do hope in future updates, and products (Mentioned GPO Strings) that the Mod Wheel is used to control ONLY Vibrato, IF it's going to be a functionally Hardwired Workflow.

In THIS current version, I'd like to see the Mod Wheel at least disabled for patches that are volume controllable only, as it is my "Instinct" to reach for the Mod Wheel, to add Vibrato, and I keep screwing up the relative volume of parts, and recording Unwanted volume MIDI changes into Pro-Tools - I literally have a piece of Tape over my mod wheel, from the string arrangement I was doing last night.

Having said all of this - Back to the $150.00 - really, this library, and application have already paid for itself in the last 12 hours. I've a few tracks of real violin, and Viola on the session already, I worked with a real string player to "Sketch out the parts" - Adding several tracks of GPO sections and Fake Cello, as well as a few Solo Instrument patches, has turned this into a very believable string section, with the Real Tracks, alone sounding like a couple of violinists standing around the studio.

If the Solo Gofriller and Stradivari were available, I WOULD purchase them to complete this collection, I WAS expecting to spend a considerable amount more, when I had decided to come to the site to see what's available.

So... new Question... I do own Kontakt4, is there any way that I can Purchase the "Old Garritian Products"? or should I check e-bay.

[raweber]

You can occasionally find older Garritan products for sale. I came up with my Strad and Gofriller used by posting a WTB another forum (one that specializes in vst instruments and is sponsored by Muse).

Now, the Garritan libraries have always had the expression mapped to the Mod Wheel, and vibrato mapped to aftertouch. This allows that all-important expression to be easily manipulated while playing and recording. If fact, it screwed me up the first time I played the Strad and grabbed the mod wheel for expression and got vibrato instead.

Finally, at least some of the controls in the Aria-based instruments are not hard-wired. You can edit the sfz file to change them with a text editor. I haven't looked at one lately to see about this, but when I get a chance I'll investigate (they open in a text editor) and see about it.

Good luck, and I hope that as you continue to work with the libraries, your disappointment will be assuaged, especially considering what they cost.

And... keep asking questions. You've stumbled upon one of the friendliest corners of the interwebs!

[Hannes_F]

SuperReverb,

you must know that for solo instruments like woodwinds there are basically two options regarding vibrato. First option is you record say an oboe that is played with vibrato. Then it is very natural but of course baked into the sample. Second option is you take a straight oboe note and vibrate it with a filter that periodically varies the pitch. The results here are somewhat less authentic but you can steer that vibrato in terms of depth and speed, and together with a decent reverb it can sound good, and the liveliness and responsivity can make good for the sound. (The strad and the Gofriller cello use a similar technology, but more sophisticated). GPO now offers you both options ... for some of the wind instruments at least.

With strings sections the game is totally different. If you would wobble a string section note with a filter this would sound weird because in reality every player vibrates a little different, and this produces a different quality of sound. So this method is not an option.

[Haydn]

Mod Wheel is controlling more than just volume. It controls both volume and timbre. So the louder you get, the brighter the sound. This is the main reason it's not set to CC7 or CC11 as they would just control volume. It was also programmed this way because Kontakt 1.53 only allowed the mod wheel to be used in this fashion.

It took me a couple days when originally working with GPO to make a paradigm shift to this new way of working.

Jim

[SuperReverb]

You can occasionally find older Garritan products for sale. I came up with my Strad and Gofriller used by posting a WTB another forum (one that specializes in vst instruments and is sponsored by Muse).

Thanks, that's good advice, I may just have a look around for those 2 instruments, I really think they would seriously compliment the GPO.

Now, the Garritan libraries have always had the expression mapped to the Mod Wheel, and vibrato mapped to aftertouch. This allows that all-important expression to be easily manipulated while playing and recording. If fact, it screwed me up the first time I played the Strad and grabbed the mod wheel for expression and got vibrato instead.

Yes, I suppose it will take some getting used to, and some additional practicing.

Finally, at least some of the controls in the Aria-based instruments are not hard-wired. You can edit the sfz file to change them with a text editor. I haven't looked at one lately to see about this, but when I get a chance I'll investigate (they open in a text editor) and see about it.

Wow, that's Hard Core, if you find a way to manipulate it so JUST the Timbre, I'd rather control volume and Timbre separately, and if you can find some Text Edit Magic, that will kill the Volume manipulation of the patch, I'll certainly try it out.

Good luck, and I hope that as you continue to work with the libraries, your disappointment will be assuaged, especially considering what they cost.

Aww.. I already feel bad about using the word "Disappointed" in the Thread, and pretty much recanted right away, stating the value v.s. Buck thing, there is a tremendous value in this library... sometimes we "See the dents and scratches first" - I just happened to write to you folks on my 1st night with the program... and in the last 48 hours, I've finished String sections for 2 songs, on pop records I'm producing, that sound better then anything I've ever done ITB to date. As stated before, the $150.00 paid for itself, about 40 hours ago.

And... keep asking questions. You've stumbled upon one of the friendliest corners of the interwebs!

Ya, no kidding... I thought this thread would float around unanswered for a week or 2, then get the proverbial "RTFM" (Which I got, right away, in a much kinder sentiment) This community seems pretty impressive right out of the gate. I'm a Rock / Pop / Country Producer, Guitarist, in Nashville. I'm sure everyone here is WAY heavier then me, full orchestral arranging... the works. I'm mostly just doing Strings, and it's nice to know you heavy cats are out here, if I ever feel like attempting to explore arranging bigger parts, out of my realm... I look forward to the feedback, and guidance.

SuperReverb,
With strings sections the game is totally different. If you would wobble a string section note with a filter this would sound weird because in reality every player vibrates a little different, and this produces a different quality of sound. So this method is not an option.

Yes, my desire for Tremolo manipulation, is exclusive to solo Instruments, or a series of layers, of that solo instrument, to create "My own Section" - Imagine how powerful, and realistic sections could sound, if I could layer 5 or 10 individual performances, "Peaking through" a "Section Pad", playing each of the 10 passes, with unique tremolo, and by it's natural, un-quanitized nature, it would (And still does with the Solo Presets... just not "As Much") sound quite authentic.

Again, my appetite for control and expression, is more for a solo Cello to soar in and out of the mix, and make a Quintet sound as raw, and dramatic as possible.

Mod Wheel is controlling more than just volume. It controls both volume and timbre. So the louder you get, the brighter the sound. This is the main reason it's not set to CC7 or CC11 as they would just control volume. It was also programmed this way because Kontakt 1.53 only allowed the mod wheel to be used in this fashion.

Yes, I'm completely supportive of the Timbre manipulation of the Mod Wheel, I just wish this is ALL it did.

It took me a couple days when originally working with GPO to make a paradigm shift to this new way of working.
Jim

Yes, it's just going to take some getting used to I suppose.

I did change the Re: Thread Title from this point forward to "Re: Not So Disappointed in GPO4 & Aria" - Thanks for all your help guys.

[ejr]

FWIW - The way the mod wheel is used (and the lack of an option to disable it) has been my biggest gripe with Garritan libraries. I know what they are trying to do and why. I just don't think it's worth the effort of fiddling with the mod wheel all the time. Or, I should say, the benefit of being able to play my keyboard the way that I normally do (and have been doing for 30+ years), rather than learning some whole new way of doing it, just to make it sound more like a flute or a violin, isn't worth the effort. Other libraries seem to manage this okay, without resorting to making you play their instruments in a totally different way. I own and use GPO and JABB all the time, but in a secondary role, never for solo work or very exposed in the mix, for this reason. It's hard to find anything of this quality for the price, so I still think they're worth owning. But these drawbacks kept me from making them my main libraries.

I didn't upgrade to the ARIA versions of GPO or JABB. I am disappointed that ARIA is not a universal sampler, like Kontakt, which I would love to replace. Kontakt is extremely buggy, and dealing with NI and their authorization process can be a nightmare. Also, it is nearly impossible to remove, since it doesn't clean up after itself regarding the changes it makes to the Windows registry. But I still use it. I have invested a great deal of money in other sample libraries, which I use more often than Garritan's, and I am not about to abandon them. I was hoping to be able to run all my Kontakt, Giga and soundfont libraries on ARIA, but since this is not possible, it has lost its appeal for me.