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Topic: Triple Bill!!

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  1. #1
    Senior Member sd cisco's Avatar
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    Triple Bill!!

    Hello Friends;
    Instead of the usual single piece on this thread, I am posting 3 pieces.
    All are by Austria/German Composers I have neglected thus far; J.S. Bach, Beethoven and Wagner.

    The selections are:

    JS Bach - Brandenburg Concerto 1 - 1st mvt 3:40

    Beethoven Piano Concerto 3 - 3rd mvt 7:40

    Wagner- Ride of The Valkyries 5:26

    .....an ambitious agenda by any standard. The Brandenburg is as busy as can be and it was hard to keep the leading voice in the fore, while democratically allowing near equal airtime to the other voices. The pace of the Beethoven piece is quite brisk, I think this shows Beethoven at his most joyous and mirthful. The Wagner "Ride of the Valkyries" is likely the scariest to take on, for one thing, people are more familiar with it and have expectations as to how it should go. I did not add or subtract any notes but I emphasized certain parts which are normally kept a bit more at bay, to a greater or lessor degree. I have been working on each of these, in serial fashion, for the past several months.
    Your reasonable comments are appreciated. I used only the instruments in the standard version of GPO4, but I used SIR 1 reverberation and rendered in Cubase 4.5.2.

    Best regards,
    sd cisco

  2. #2
    New Member casals51's Avatar
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    Re: Triple Bill!!

    Hello sd cisco!

    For the Beethoven's last movement of his 3rd piano concerto, I think your tempi are far too much fast! I'd suggest the following tempi (download the midi file from http://www.kunstderfuge.com to match my bar numbers quoting):

    - Bar 1 to 28 = BPM of 110
    - Bar 29 to 34 = BPM of 90
    - Bar 35 to 160 = BPM of 110
    - Bar 161 to 172 = BPM of 90
    - Bar 173 to 427 = BPM of 110
    - Bar 428 to 437 = BPM of 130
    - Bar 438 to end = BPM of 150

    Globally, you did run faster the main stuff, but I think that transitions assumed by the piano alone sometimes have to be slower and sometimes faster than the main tempo. Also, the race to the finish which begins at bar 438 have to be faster than the main tempo.

    I'd be very interested to hear the result.

    Best Regards

    Francis

  3. #3

    Re: Triple Bill!!

    Wow, that *is* ambitious.

    I'm listening to Bach now. The balance and rendering is pretty good. It sounds somewhere between a modern and an "authentic" orchestra. We probably disagree on the tempi, as usual, (I'm accustomed to a slower performance), but your execution has this precise "dancing" feel to it that I like so much about Bach. Trills are near perfection!

    Later I'll give the other two a good listen, and provide feedback on that, but if they're half as good as this, I'm going to enjoy them.
    Theo

  4. #4

    Re: Triple Bill!!

    The Bach and the Beethoven are very nice and I like the mix a lot, good over all sound and feel.

    Now I have heard many versions of Ride of the Valkyries and yes, I have expectations. I like what you did with it, not what I was expecting but very pleased with what I heard. The mix was very interesting, almost had the feel of some of the mixes I do for my songs, which gets you extra bonus points.

    All in all SD, a very fine job on these three but Ride of the Valkyries is my favorite.
    Producer ~ Sound Engineer ~ Musician

    http://www.myspace.com/451525581

  5. #5
    New Member casals51's Avatar
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    Re: Triple Bill!!

    Hello, once again!

    I've just listened to your Bach rendering, I like it, the different parts are well balanced. The strings are a little behind, maybe using another convolution tool than SIR1, which creates latency, would clarify the sound. I've been using Reveberate LE which has no latency.

    For your Beethoven rendering, I meant this:

    http://www.box.net/shared/q6z9krysi4

    I made that quickly, it's not balanced, but that's what I meant regarding the tempo.

    Thank you again for allowing us to listen such great music!

    Best Regards

    Francis

  6. #6
    Senior Member sd cisco's Avatar
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    Re: Triple Bill!!

    Hello Francis;
    I have been working on the revised tempo Beethoven for a number of hours, I first used the midi file you provided the link for, but changing the tempo as you had indicated. Then I checked with the file I had created and the tempo markers matched so I began changing it instead. However, as you say, it is the re-balancing of the mix which takes the most time, and I know I worked on that in my faster version. I did reference many versions and found them all slower than what I had but after awhile, that starts to sound "right" and you get used to it. Nonetheless you have made a point and it is taken.
    Your description of the strings in the Bach being a little "behind" is not due to the latency issues with SIR 1, those issues are for when you are playing live using it, then you get like about 1 second delay, so it is impossible to use it for live playing, only for an existing track.
    Thanks for taking the time to provide some coaching on the workings of this music, we are very lucky to have such tools, whatever we make with them!

    Best regards,
    sd cisco

  7. #7
    Senior Member sd cisco's Avatar
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    Re: Triple Bill!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    Wow, that *is* ambitious.

    I'm listening to Bach now. The balance and rendering is pretty good. It sounds somewhere between a modern and an "authentic" orchestra. We probably disagree on the tempi, as usual, (I'm accustomed to a slower performance), but your execution has this precise "dancing" feel to it that I like so much about Bach. Trills are near perfection!

    Later I'll give the other two a good listen, and provide feedback on that, but if they're half as good as this, I'm going to enjoy them.
    Thank you Theo;
    I had tried using the piano in place of the harpsichord on the Bach, but figured it made such a change that I lost sight somewhat of the original character of the music, so I brought the Harpsichord back.
    As far as tempo is concerned, it really seems to be a matter of taste, and again, I reference the conducting of Leonard Bernstein for the Mozart Lacrimosa from the Requiem D minor, it was super slow, but because it was LB, he could do it and get away with it and people would just say, that's his interpretation of the music. Some music attracts interpreters, other music, not so much. So, count himself lucky, any composer who's work is being interpreted in the first place!!
    Thanks for listening!

    Best regards,
    sd cisco

  8. #8
    Senior Member sd cisco's Avatar
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    Re: Triple Bill!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hippie View Post
    The Bach and the Beethoven are very nice and I like the mix a lot, good over all sound and feel.

    Now I have heard many versions of Ride of the Valkyries and yes, I have expectations. I like what you did with it, not what I was expecting but very pleased with what I heard. The mix was very interesting, almost had the feel of some of the mixes I do for my songs, which gets you extra bonus points.

    All in all SD, a very fine job on these three but Ride of the Valkyries is my favorite.
    Aram;
    Thanks for giving this stuff a listen, I like the almost hallucinatory nature of the Wagner piece, I'm sure there is plenty of his music which could downright frighten little children!! His music was still represented by notes, but what those notes were signifying was far different than what anybody thought notes could represent, before then.

    Best regards,
    sd cisco

  9. #9

    Re: Triple Bill!!

    I've listened to the Wagner, and it's good. The string runs are unfortunately a bit synthetic, but that's so hard to get right. The trills are completely right though. Perhaps you can reduce the "length" a bit, especially on the downward part of the arpeggio.

    About the tempo... I like it! And the whole piece sounds quite musical. On to Beethoven (there is too much to hear in this forum...).
    Theo

  10. #10

    Re: Triple Bill!!

    The Beethoven is indeed brisk, joyous and mirthful. I'd have done it a bit slower, but not much, since this part is really a great burst of energy, and you've captured its mood quite well, and I admire how you take back speed and then go back to full throttle; it's very natural. I also heard details in your version which I hadn't noticed before, but perhaps it's a different edition. If I were pressed to find some flaw, it would be that the cellos and basses could have been a bit louder, but that's nitpicking. Great stuff, thanks for sharing.
    Thanks for taking the time to provide some coaching on the workings of this music, we are very lucky to have such tools, whatever we make with them!
    Completely true: it's great that people here take their time, and we are lucky to have all these wonderful tools.
    Theo

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