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Topic: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

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  1. #11

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    Hi Trent,

    Quote Originally Posted by trentpmcd View Post
    I don’t know – Kuiper’s Trousers was kind of fun, but this is the stuff of nightmares. Very unsettling.
    My heavens! I certainly wasn't trying to unsettle anyone,
    Trent. Quite the contrary. If -- and that's a big IF --
    there's any effect whatsoever from this, it would be
    little beyond mildly relaxed alertness.

    Personally? Doesn't do a thing to me that I can discern.
    At least nothing that listening to music in general doesn't
    do. Probably some mild relaxation and alertness, if that.

    During its best moments it sounded like when they explore the mind of a homicidal maniac in a thriller or hard core detective movie.

    I’m always pleased when I see a new Sosnowski piece up, but I have to admit that this is probably the only one I will never to again – once was enough.
    Trent, there's a great deal of "hype" surrounding things
    like this; but that's all it is, hype.

    "Music" like this is no more conducive to influencing the
    brain than Mozart. Indeed, Mozart would undoubtedly
    have a much, much stronger effect on most people!

    My best,



    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com

  2. #12

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    Hi Louis!

    Quote Originally Posted by LouisD View Post
    It works !!!! I'm confused !!! What was it supposed to conjure up in the brain ? I'm afraid even with my trusted dictionary at my finger tips, I somehow got lost in your introduction.....
    Yes, any discussion of this tends to get abstruse. Let
    me sum it up better. The idea is that certain frequencies
    of electrical activity in your brain reflect certain states.

    In theory, if you listen to something containing these
    frequencies -- your brain's wave patterns will kind of
    resonate with them ("entrain") and fall into the same
    pattern...

    There's certainly something to the idea. Many meditation
    techniques work, at least in part, on that idea -- which
    is probably why they use repeated rhytmic phrases or
    chanting or motion.

    In all seriousness, it does have an effect, I'm simply not sure what exactly it is.
    If I listen to this with my eyes closed in a darkened, quiet
    room -- I notice some sense of calm mixed with expectation.
    It's a very slight effect, if any... similar, I should add, to
    what I experience when I meditate in silence... lol!

    Maybe I'm just thick-headed.

    Thanks for not only letting us into your brain, but also for trying to affect ours.....
    I think the rhythmic elements of *any* music affect us
    deeply. Perhaps the key matter with this little experiment
    is that there's very little music (in the sense we usually
    think of it) and more emphasis on subtle, low-level rhythm
    factors.

    Best,



    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com

  3. #13

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    Thanks, Karen!

    A lot of good background, here.

    Gosh, I didn't think this little experiment would
    set of much more than a few yawns... rofl!

    Best,



    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com



    Quote Originally Posted by KE Peace View Post
    I use a CD called the Delta Sleep System (info at: http://www.toolsforwellness.com/tb801cd.html ) which is based on the principles you mention, Dave, (entrainment of the waves in the brain to a certain frequency by use of music). It does indeed seem to help me sleep and stay asleep. This kind of research has created a new field called psychoacoustics ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics) (which you probably already know, Dave, but some may not have heard of it, as I had not until fairly recently).


    So, it's looking pretty scientific to me -- a couple of courses from Michigan State (and I note one is a physics course):

    http://www.pa.msu.edu/acoustics/

    Physics 405: SIGNALS, SOUND, AND SENSATION
    Spring Semester

    Text: Signals, Sound, and Sensation by W.M. Hartmann, AIP Press
    (Springer-Verlag), 1997.

    Demos HRW = Houtsma, Rossing, Wagenaars,
    "Auditory Demos on Compact Disc."

    ISP 215: THE SCIENCE OF SOUND

    Course Pack: ISP 215 -
    PRINCIPLES OF MUSICAL ACOUSTICS -
    by W.M. Hartmann
    at Student Bookstore on Grand River

    See also: www.pa.msu.edu/acoustics

    And this is interesting: http://web-us.com/thescience.htm I scanned it, and it describes the mechanism of brain-wave entrainment in very detailed terms.

    The different frequencies of the brain in different states have been identified by EEG; I had a sleep study done once, which was what got me interested in this topic. The four brain states (there may be more, but these are the common ones as far as I know) have distinct frequency ranges. The states are: beta (high waking), alpha (meditative waking state), theta (dream state) and delta (deep sleep). There is also a strange phenomenon, known to neuroscientists, called "intrusions" whereby one state intrudes upon or co-exists with another. For example, I was told after my sleep study, that I had alpha "intrusions" during sleep approximately eighteen times an hour I think it was-- in other words, my brain was "waking up" into a meditative state (alpha). There is also "theta intrusion" whereby during high waking (our normal conscious waking state), the dream state intrudes or simply co-exists with high waking at the same time. I have experienced this many times, and it is a very strange feeling. The conscious mind functions perfectly fine, but another part of the mind is dreaming and one can switch one's attention from one to the other as desired, or perceive both at the same time. And like in regular dreaming, you can't quite "catch" any image or event or thought in the dreaming part of the mind -- they go by too fast, though they feel as compelling as waking perceptions.

    I share all these things, I guess, simply because they are fascinating to me, and might also be to others. I have no doubt that music, especially music designed for that purpose, can alter mind-states. Traditional cultures have known this for a long time, but only recently is science beginning to plumb the depths of why this is, from a neuroscience standpoint.

    Now, I go to listen!

    Thanks, Dave!
    Karen

  4. #14

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL!

    Danny, I couldn't have said it better, myself!

    Best,



    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com




    Quote Originally Posted by DDW View Post
    Hi David,

    This has been my first real exposure to stochacism, which has been quite fascinating. Delta was admittedly a bit more disturbing than Trousers, although I find the notion of actually altering the mind just from listening a bit questionable as hot dog underwear absorbs tree branch juice just this past Tuesday. The kidney stones portray bleak prospects in regard to black silk jackets, although not so every second, nor can I please Momma. Uniform attacks on bee colonies with nuclear reactor coffee aside, nonetheless it does, then proceeds into Alaskan fairy tales. Upon crossing Liza Minelli, the nose implant nonethless can screech with pleasure during the Mesozoic. Yes.

    Danny

    P.S. The bridge really swung.

  5. #15

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    Hi Karen,

    Quote Originally Posted by KE Peace View Post
    Hiya Dave,

    Well, I listened twice, with earphones as you suggested. It occurred to me that it is not that easy to listen to a piece that induces alpha and delta waves, while attemtping to be conscious enough to describe what is happening (which is a distinctly beta-wave function, I think). So, here's my best shot at doing so:

    I listened suspending the analytical faculty as best I could -- ie not thinking about instrumentation or algorithms or pitch or composition, just hearing the sounds, and relaxing into them.

    I found myself feeling some of the "dreamlike" quality of the theta state (which is in between alpha and delta, the states you note the piece alternates between, or includes aspects of both). So I suppose it makes sense to me that theta might come up as a transition from one to the other. That sense of something feeling very compelling, and yet ungraspable was there for me. I also felt a bit sleepy, but I was a little tired anyway when I started listening, so that may be just an artifact...
    Interesting. I get a very vague sense of calm mixed with
    mild expectation -- very slight. But that more or less loosely
    lines up with what you say above.

    On the other hand, as you say, it could just be where you
    were to begin with... lol.

    It is interesting that for one person (my apologies, i don't have the post in front of me, and my short-term memory for names is sketchy!), this piece was quite unpleasant. That made me recall that the delta sleep state is actually the one in which nightmares occur (unlike regular dreams, even bad ones, which occurr in theta). Perhaps this piece, targeting delta, was especially effective in that case, and just happened to induce a nightmarish experience? Just a thought.

    I'd be curious to hear more of the mechanics of creating this piece, although, not being very adept at mathematics, I may not understand them. For instance, is alpha intertwined with delta throughout? Other questions will probably come up, but right now, I have to get back to "beta" and take care of some waking-state business LOL!
    The formulae are juggled to produce subtle rhythmic
    effects right around delta and alpha (note entries for
    one; and interference patterns for another). Post-
    processing -- you can hear this easily if you listen
    closely -- adds a little modulation at 4 Hz. Plus there's
    a longer wave rotation through the auditory field.

    At best, it's a pseudo-scientific approach; an amalgam
    of various and sundry rhythmic elements centered
    around the key frequencies.

    Fascinating, and for me, relaxing.

    Karen
    Thanks, Karen.

    From our conversations, I am well aware of your deep
    interest in areas of spirituality, including meditation
    techniques. At the same time, I know you're firmly,
    hard-headedly rooted in logical thought, as well.

    That makes your thoughts on this doubly interesting
    to me!

    My best,



    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com

  6. #16

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    Quote Originally Posted by KE Peace View Post
    Danny, was that post from some kind of postmodern text generator or something? Had a dream-like quality for me the semantics of which seem analogous to the dream-like state induced by this music! LOL!
    ROFL! My heavens, Danny's comment has *got* to be
    the best one so far!

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com

  7. #17

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhap2 View Post
    David:

    Thank you for an introduction to ASM.......Not a
    particularly favorite of mine, but I can see the
    scientific application applied here.
    Very loosely, sure. I hasten to emphasize that this is NOT
    any kind of original idea on my part, not at all.

    There are many, many meditation tapes and CD's and products
    like that out there that use the very same ideas, and some
    which are much more sophisticated.

    I'm working on a new composition, BUT after listening
    to "sublime delta" I lost most of what I was thinking
    about for the last two days........thanks........lol

    Jack
    LOL! Well, heck, Jack -- I'm really sorry. But I know
    in my case, I don't need any external help to forget
    what I'm doing.

    Not to worry, though. Shortly I'm going to attempt
    creating a musical trans-temporal dislocator so you can
    go back and get all that...

    Thanks for spending time with this, Jack.

    My best,



    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com

  8. #18
    Senior Member sosmus's Avatar
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    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    The different frequencies of the brain in different states have been identified by EEG; I had a sleep study done once, which was what got me interested in this topic. The four brain states (there may be more, but these are the common ones as far as I know) have distinct frequency ranges. The states are: beta (high waking), alpha (meditative waking state), theta (dream state) and delta (deep sleep). There is also a strange phenomenon, known to neuroscientists, called "intrusions" whereby one state intrudes upon or co-exists with another. For example, I was told after my sleep study, that I had alpha "intrusions" during sleep approximately eighteen times an hour I think it was-- in other words, my brain was "waking up" into a meditative state (alpha). There is also "theta intrusion" whereby during high waking (our normal conscious waking state), the dream state intrudes or simply co-exists with high waking at the same time. I have experienced this many times, and it is a very strange feeling. The conscious mind functions perfectly fine, but another part of the mind is dreaming and one can switch one's attention from one to the other as desired, or perceive both at the same time. And like in regular dreaming, you can't quite "catch" any image or event or thought in the dreaming part of the mind -- they go by too fast, though they feel as compelling as waking perceptions.
    Wha'd he say?
    This piece is a perfect picturization of me trying to argue with my ex-wife:
    Just when you think it is over it isn't, so you wonder when it will end, or where will it end or WILL IT EVER END?
    Actually, I find this kind of writing fascinating but mind boggling. I like it's seemingly randomness because it takes great planning to get that effect.
    I also like Danny's response, which like the quote above, makes great use of words. Now, if I could just figure out what both sets of those words mean?
    Steve

  9. #19

    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    This works for me David. per 'Trousers', I find this music controlled, captivating and capable of conjuring up a variety of mood and thought - and in that respect, revealing glimpses of both darkness and enlightenment.

    From a purely musical perspective, I could see both stochastic pieces contributing to a larger scale work that contains more lyrical writing in places by way of relief, a quality I particularly admired in Beyond the Event Horizon. That said, I'm up for listening to these as a set of fantasia as they stand. Are you planning any more?

    Again, great use here of the new piano and other instruments from the Garritan collection.

    Best wishes, Graham

  10. #20
    Senior Member valhalx's Avatar
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    Re: SUBLIME DELTA – Mind-Altering Music? (Sosnowski)

    David,

    Fascinating music and experiment. I listened twice today. The first was this morning, as I was having coffee and catching up on the news. That time it was more in the background as my mind was preoccupied. I felt a sense of calm and relaxation. A couple of hours later I listened and paid attention. About half way in I began to experience feelings of anxiety and tension. Those feelings progressed to foreboding and near panic. I don't know if it was a result of listening analytically or what. I can tell you I had a similar experience in 1968 when I listened to Ravel's Bolero three times in a row.

    Bill
    Never look at the trombones. It only encourages them. Richard Strauss

    My Website
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