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Topic: Need help choosing good velocity break points

  1. #1

    Need help choosing good velocity break points

    Hi all,
    I\'ve been usign Maarten\'s free SAM Trumpet, and now purchased the Bigga Gigga Trumpet to add some sonic varity to my music. (Pop/World Beat/Jazz - not orchestral)

    I had started a thread just prior to the crash which seems to have been lost post crash. In that thread I mentioned that I was having some trouble with the sound of the BG Trumpet. I\'ve now determined that the issue is different velocity break points between the two libraries. The BG Trumpet sounds just fine.

    The issue I\'ve run into is the SAM & BG Trumpets have their velocity breakpoints set at different levels. Also, SAM has 4 different samples whereas the BG has only two. All of these things combine to just make it difficult to switch between the two.

    I\'m wondering if there are any standard velocity levels people have come to accept as good places to put these breaks? I know it doesn\'t actually matter technically, but it seems like it would make it easier to switch libraries around if there were some standards. Also easier to share MIDI files if there were some standards for this.

    If there aren\'t any standards, would people think that it was a good idea to try and set some? Would it cause any problems that I\'m not thinking of?

    Anyway, let me know what you\'re all using as I\'m interested.


  2. #2

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points


    As far as I know there are no \"standards\" for velocity cross switches.

    There are multitudes of reasons for this.

    The controller/keyboards velocity response, the Players control, the sound of the velocity switch itself depending on the sample.

    HAve thought that it might be velocity curve/response in the instrument itself. It may not be the actualy crosspoints, but that the resposnse is switch to non-linear or linear and is different between the libraries.

    Really...I am an Idiot

  3. #3

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points


    I would reccomend experimenting around with different velocities and XFades, then sequence something, close your eyes and listen! I think you will quickly realize what works for you and what doesn\'t!
    My personal preference is to keep all Forte and FF samples at the top velocity range (120-127) because when I hit those keys I usually mean it and I don\'t want to trigger those samples accidentally.

    I have found that generally it\'s easier to hit a key harder than softer. Much easier to achieve velocities in the 60 and up range than 60 40\'s and below.

  4. #4

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points

    I agree completely with what midphase says

    Really...I am an Idiot

  5. #5

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points

    KingIdiot and midphase,
    Thanks for the comments and pointers. This is the sort of info I was looking for. I appreciate your responses.

    This came up precisely because I had sequenced something using the SAM trumpet. I won\'t give the levels in the SAM trumpet nofficial ames, but that library (I\'m doing this from memory right now) has samples that run from somethign like 0-59, 60-74, 75-89, and 90-127. I happened to be using the loudest, but my MIDI velocities we about 90-98.

    When I received the BG Trumpet, I just didn\'t sound right. I found that the loudest sample didn\'t kick in until 96. This created a sort of stradled sound with some notes in the loud sample and some in the next lower range. It simply doesn\'t sound right.

    KingIdiot - I found the sentence you wrote a bit difficult to follow, but I think it could be part of the solution. Please excuse my editing to see if I understand.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>[QB]HAve thought that it might be velocity curve/response in the instrument itself. It may not be the actualy crosspoints, but that the resposnse is switch to non-linear or linear and is different between the libraries.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I take to mean:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Have you thought that it might be the velocity curve/response in the instrument itself? It may not be the actual crosspoints, but that the response is switched to non-linear or linear and is different between the libraries.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Assuming that I\'ve edited correctly, this is interesting and certainly not something I had considered. I\'ll have to look into this idea this evening. I need to learn about this part of GSt. How do I tell whether it\'s set for linear or non-linear?

    I understand that there\'s no right or wrong here. That said, I\'m certainly not going to change all my MIDI info in all my songs each time I want to try a library, so the only thing I can do it fix the library. However, if there were some standards that developers could (and would!) follow, then it would make using these tools more consistent and easier, I think.


    [This message has been edited by Mark_Knecht (edited 04-22-2002).]

  6. #6

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points

    Hey Mark,

    Yah I tend to type to fast sometimes .

    It seems more like you were correct. In that the problem you are having is being caused by velocity crossover/breakpoints.

    I still dont think a standard is going to help here. In fact I would see it hurting libraries more than helping. Some programmers rely on much more than velocity to create the response of the particular instrument (and even sometimes the region within the instrument). There are filters. Seperate Response curves for each velocity, Layer controls. These all affect the \"best place\" to put the breakpoint. Forcing breakpoints may end up helping to make the isntrument sound \"worse\".

    Not to mention multiple velocities. The difference between a 4 velocity switched instrument and a 2 velocity switched instrument is pretty huge. Trying to make the velocity crosspoints of a 2 switch concur with ones of 8 or even 16 switches seems a little more than \"stretching it\"

    Waht most of us do, is adjsut the mix in our sequencer by adding/subtracting velocity values via edits inside whole MIDI track. Most sequencers have a macro for this. Another option in some sequencers is to add or subract Velocity values at the input stage. Cubase has a \"vel\" data box in its Track Info section (left of the actual track view). Setting this to a value adds or subtracts that value in realtime.

    You can ofcourse, just adjust the velocity breakpoint withing the gig yourself.

    Another reason I\'d hate to see a standard is that different people play instruments differently. Lately I\'ve been liking my Forte samples at the top of the velocity break point, because the response on my Ztar is pretty \"light\". but on my Keyboard controller I might like it a bit lower.

    cunnungham, yes its possible to determine these settings via ART files. Most of the translating software can do simple instrument edits this as well.

    Really...I am an Idiot

    [This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 04-22-2002).]

  7. #7

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points

    This is truly just going to be a conversation. I understand that...

    I think you make some good points. Also, I don\'t expect to prevail here, but let me forge ahead!

    I sincerly hope I haven\'t spoken too forcefully. I went back and reread my posts and don\'t see that I did, but one never knows how one is being taken. (As per a few other threads here recently.) In no way did I mean that a standard value for velocity splits meant that someone couldn\'t change it. Not at all. Only that when two developers of similar libraries (say brass) ship a library, that the splits might be set at the same values. That\'s all.

    I would argue that standards are good, actually. I TRULY agree with every argument you have against them, BUT...

    ...as I read your arguments, I see the idea that you would expect to modify any settings you received in a new library anyway, due to your equipment and playing styles. If that\'s the case, then why would an advanced user like you care that ALL horns place the loudest sample at 90, or 96? You don\'t because you\'ll change it anyway. I can see that.

    ...but for us low-end users that don\'t want to mess with this stuff, when I use two different horn libraries, and find them more interchangable, what\'s the harm in that? I think that\'s better for the community as a whole.

    And I understand that the developers aren\'t probably going to go for this because they all think there\'s some value in being unique, but you\'ve rightly pointed out that the same library does not sound the same at your place and mine, so it\'s not really possible for Dan Dean or Bigga Gigga to know exactly what the library sounds like at my place.

    With best regards,

  8. #8

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points

    Hey Mark,

    No forceful speakin gat all

    Anyhow, the reason I care if there is a standard, is how it would effect differnt programming styles. If you have acess to any of Dan Dean woodwinds, you might want to check the editing out. Its programmed with many velocity curves for different velocity breakpoints. In programming like this Velocity breakpoitns play a BIG part in how the instrument sounds. Add filters to that and its even deeper. In these cases I change the sequencer playback, not the velocity breakpoints.

    Anyhow, in small changes like 6 values (between 90 and 96) I dont see any difference making a huge stiunk over. but the difference between 95 and 110 is huge, and ahs a big chance of changing the sound of the instrument depending on opther programming options.

    I\'d hate to see developers being forced to make their instruments perform under their top performance just to fulfil a standard

    Now if there was a \"simple\" version of each instrument within the gig file that conformed to standards, I wouldn\'t mind that.

    Anyhow, even in keyboards the velocity breakpoints are different in each instrument.

    Really...I am an Idiot

  9. #9

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points

    I think you\'re right. You\'ve been at this longer than I. I think I just got burned by my own inexperience with this stuff. Please keep in mind that I still don\'t use articulation files after 4-5 months using GSt. Don\'t know how. (Better manual maybe? No time certainly!)

    And nothing I\'ve said should ever be construed as suggesting that because of a standard we should get less than the best the tools have to offer. That would be silly and going backwards. We both agree on that.

    Thanks for the conversation!


  10. #10

    Re: Need help choosing good velocity break points

    This is really a good topic. Many of us use HALion or other samplers in combination Giga libraries. It would be wonderful to know what tweaks are made, so that we can try to apply simliar tweaks in our samplers. Like any other tool (particularly in software) too many people apply the effects and presets as is, right out of the box. With a bit more knowledge, we could possibly adjust sounds to better fit our needs and expectations.

    Separately, is it possible to determine settings in an .ART file? ... or possibly apply an .ART file setting using a translator program as opposed to using Gigastudio or Gigasampler?

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