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Topic: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

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  1. #1

    Arrow Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    I thought some of the new Solo Stradivarius users amongst us might find this real world comparison useful.

    Hannes_Stradi_Comparison.mp3

    While discussing some ways of obtaining extra expression from the Stradi, Hannes kindly sent in a live version of the opening phrase of Keith's romance for Violin and Harp.

    I have attempted to copy his version with the Stradi. Though I have not tried to capture every nuance of his wonderful playing, I did try to capture the basic expressive arc.

    How close do you think I got. ??

    For those who would like to see the data up-close.
    Here is the midi file.
    Hannes_Stradi_Comparison.mid

    The thread that started this discussion can be found at.....
    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=50761
    Why not listen to Keiths piece and leave a comment.

    regards Joe

    ps I wasnt sure where best to post this. So if the mods think it should go somewhere else.........by all means........

  2. #2

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Dang close!

    There's a different tone and feel to it, of course;
    and, to me, a more expressive nuancing in Hannes'
    live version (he's a fine violinist).

    But I also think with continued work you could
    come even closer, Joe.

    On the other hand, I have to credit that you caught
    some very fine details with real finesse on this, too,
    that really surprise me.

    Thanks for posting this -- most interesting.

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .

  3. #3

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by joaz
    I thought some of the new Solo Stradivarius users amongst us might find this real world comparison useful.

    Hannes_Stradi_Comparison.mp3

    While discussing some ways of obtaining extra expression from the Stradi, Hannes kindly sent in a live version of the opening phrase of Keith's romance for Violin and Harp.

    I have attempted to copy his version with the Stradi. Though I have not tried to capture every nuance of his wonderful playing, I did try to capture the basic expressive arc.

    How close do you think I got. ??

    For those who would like to see the data up-close.
    Here is the midi file.
    Hannes_Stradi_Comparison.mid

    The thread that started this discussion can be found at.....
    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=50761
    Why not listen to Keiths piece and leave a comment.

    regards Joe

    ps I wasnt sure where best to post this. So if the mods think it should go somewhere else.........by all means........
    Hi Joe,

    first it left me with mixed feelings to see my name on a title ... but the version you did is very good and I think this is a good opportunity to learn for us all. I am glad somebody picked up the ball I threw into the game. You get the Strad to legato and singing much more than every demo that I have heard so far.

    I am looking at the midi file - and see data in Pitchbend, velocity, cc1, cc07, cc11, cc64, cc67. Which is what?


    Hannes
    All your strings belong to me!
    www.strings-on-demand.com

  4. #4

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannes_F
    I am looking at the midi file - and see data in Pitchbend, velocity, cc1, cc07, cc11, cc64, cc67. Which is what?

    Hannes
    I aplogise for using your playing and name without permission, but I thought you would be ok with it, as it is in the spirit of scholarly research.
    These are how the controllers were used, and how they differ from GPO.

    Velocity, Sustain pedal, Pitchbend are all the same as GPO.

    Modulation actually controls the vibrato,(Much like it always did on synths)

    CC 67 controls the vibrato's default speed.
    Aftertouch intensifies the speed of the vibrato.

    CC11 Expression works like the mod wheel in GPO, volume and brightness and also introduces some tuning discrepencies if used in a quick and strong manner.

    CC7 is Main Volume and works like a fader in your sequencer. So it is possible to have fader automation without leaving the midi domain.This helps a lot with fade in and fade outs because I always found it hard to get these right in GPO/Stradi with Modwheel/Expression alone.

    It is possible that this Main Volume controller data will not show up in the midi sequence but rather in your DAW if it is set to read automation.

    For the opening and closing phrase, I had the stradi play con sordino, to try and get closer to your beautiful sul tasto sound.


    The other thing I did, Hannes, when it was in audio domain, was automate a gradual brightening of the eq up to the highest note, and back to its starting position. This was in honour of you previously posted research on this subject.

    I hope some other Stradi users will take my midi file and change the data to suit them and post their results.

    regards Joe

  5. #5

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by etLux
    But I also think with continued work you could
    come even closer, Joe.

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .
    Ay theres the rub.

    I noticed this phenomonon when I chose the impossible task of trying to emulate Iain Ballamy, I got 90% there in a relatively quick time, but that final 10% was sheer bloody horror.( And it was frankly still some distance from capturing the nuances of his wonderful sound.)

    This is just one of the reasons I am in the "hire a live player whenever possible" camp.

    Still, what I find so encouraging about the Stradi, is that you can get very expressive results relatively quickly.

    Thanks for the interest David.

    regards Joe

  6. #6

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by joaz
    Ay theres the rub.

    I noticed this phenomonon when I chose the impossible task of trying to emulate Iain Ballamy, I got 90% there in a relatively quick time, but that final 10% was sheer bloody horror.( And it was frankly still some distance from capturing the nuances of his wonderful sound.)

    This is just one of the reasons I am in the "hire a live player whenever possible" camp.

    Still, what I find so encouraging about the Stradi, is that you can get very expressive results relatively quickly.

    Thanks for the interest David.

    regards Joe
    The good thing in mimicking a live player is that one can learn something about the amounts of the indegrients:
    - Bowing and breathing still tend to produce much faster changes than what we mostly dare to enter with modwheels or mouse
    - There are certain schemes of tone development in regards to volume, vibrato width, vibrato speed. They are not really linear ramps as one would think.

    My receipe of a beautiful tone is that something should change every beat. With other words a whole note consists of four phases, and there is a noticeable change between every quarter: Either timbre, volume, vibrato width or speed. Not everything is changing, and it is not a continuous change. It is phased and timed because everything has a rhythm - even sustained notes. And then there may be even a change towards the last eighth.

    This is just a hint - not mathematically exact and depends on feeling for timing and the situation. But when I play with a pianist he normally even knows on fermatas by listening when I will end the note and begin the next.

    Once these basics are learned the aim would be not to mimick a live player but simply to play expressive on the virtual instrument, using ears and taste. But mimicking can be a stepstone.


    Hannes
    All your strings belong to me!
    www.strings-on-demand.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Paris, France
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    349

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    The temptation to rise to the bait was too great!.. I had to have a go myself ... (I quickly jotted down the melody line of that first phrase on paper. This is strictly live (I used the Strad 2.02 Impulse Response, and K2's own reverb), and I took the liberty of going with my own phrasing, rather than trying to copy either Hannes or Joe or Keith..

    Keith's piece.mp3

    (Vic runs for cover! )
    Cubase 5.1 | Cubase 4.5.2 | Digital Performer 7.0 | Mac OSX 10.5.8 || Mac "MDD" dual 1GB | 1.75GB RAM | MOTU PCI-424/2408mk3 | MOTU MidiTimepice AV

  8. #8

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Joe! What fun! (Vic, I haven't listened to yours yet)
    As a new Strad owner (thanks Gary for the group buy!), I appreciate the tutorial. I haven't juimped in yet, but hope to shortly. I will refer to your CC data examples when I do. I especially liked that you used EQ in the audio domain- very cool! Hannes playing is very sweet! Good stuff to try and emulate.

    I have so many live instruments to practice... Santa got me a flugelhorn for Christmas! And - a lovely set of Susato penny whistles, so I am in my "happy place", practicing!

    Regards,

    Jim
    RealSax.com "When you need real sax in your tracks."
    http://www.realsax.com

  9. #9

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by vic_france
    The temptation to rise to the bait was too great!.. I had to have a go myself ... (I quickly jotted down the melody line of that first phrase on paper. This is strictly live (I used the Strad 2.02 Impulse Response, and K2's own reverb), and I took the liberty of going with my own phrasing, rather than trying to copy either Hannes or Joe or Keith..

    Keith's piece.mp3

    (Vic runs for cover! )
    Vic, very good! As I suggested, be expressive.

    Obviously there are different possible points of view in regards to how long the arcs should be. I did one big arc with the perspective of this being the beginning of a whole piece. But it is also possible to make more divisions as you did. Now we are talking about essential aspects for melody instruments. How can we balance the development of the individual tone ... with the transition between two tones ... and fit that into the overall phrasing ... and in a way that everything is expressive but nothing pops out of the balance ... and put volume, timbre, vibrato width and vibrato depth into all this.

    Keep them coming!


    Hannes
    All your strings belong to me!
    www.strings-on-demand.com

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    349

    Re: Hannes-Live Violin-Stradi comparison.

    Thanks Hannes
    In fact, a couple of velocities turned out somewhat stronger than I had actually intended.. but that's just my own overreaction to getting unintended portamenti..(it's still a learning process! ).. but I really wanted to post it unedited.
    Cubase 5.1 | Cubase 4.5.2 | Digital Performer 7.0 | Mac OSX 10.5.8 || Mac "MDD" dual 1GB | 1.75GB RAM | MOTU PCI-424/2408mk3 | MOTU MidiTimepice AV

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