• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 29

Topic: Help Real Vs. Sample

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Help Real Vs. Sample

    Below are two links. The first is a passage of music played by Garritan String Samples completely DRY. The second link is a recording of the SAME passage played by REAL performers with some Reverb.
    My question is: Please compare the two recordings. Does one of them sound out of tune? Or just poorly played? Your honest and straight forward answers will help me make some adjustments. Please be very honest and open minded. I would like to hear every opinion. There are no GOOD of BAD answers here.
    Thank you very much for your time and help.

    Link 1: http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com/sample.mp3
    Link 2: http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com/real.mp3


    Sincerely,
    Michael
    "...Wiktor's a Jekyll-Hyde personality..." - Lycos Music
    http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com

  2. #2

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Would like to hear the "real" one with no reverb.

    R.

  3. #3

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Michael, what i hear is:

    the second line (that starting with d, g#, e, eb, f, bb, a, maybe violas) is played in the sample rendition an octave higher than the real recording thus interfering with the first line of violins

    an excessive panning especially first violins

    no out of tune notes

    ciao

    Roberto

  4. #4

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by dabbler
    Would like to hear the "real" one with no reverb.

    R.
    I can't do that. It was performed live.
    "...Wiktor's a Jekyll-Hyde personality..." - Lycos Music
    http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com

  5. #5

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by oldbob
    Michael, what i hear is:

    the second line (that starting with d, g#, e, eb, f, bb, a, maybe violas) is played in the sample rendition an octave higher than the real recording thus interfering with the first line of violins

    an excessive panning especially first violins

    no out of tune notes

    ciao

    Roberto
    Hi Roberto, thank you for your reply. Those are the correct notes for the viola line. Your right, the orchestra transposed the violas down one octave. So, I did the same on my score using Garritan strings and it still sounds fine. Everytime I listen to the "real" or Live recording (link 2) they sounds out of tune to themselves. There are 6 violins, 5 violas, 2 cello, 1 bass. Does that make sense to you? Don't they sounds a little out of tune? I've had one other reply in the general thread that agrees. Not trying to be hard on the performers; just trying to figure out what went wrong...
    Thanks for any help.

    Sincerely,
    Michael
    "...Wiktor's a Jekyll-Hyde personality..." - Lycos Music
    http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com

  6. #6
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    5,755

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    The second version is indeed out of tune with itself.

    I would rehearse it very slowly with sustains, so that the players can learn where they need to adjust for their particular role in the chord. In particular, when the bass has the minor third, it is sharp and is forcing the rest of the ensemble out.

    Also, the root/fifth relationships are stretched--sharp on top.

    The second thing I would do in rehearsal is get a pyramid-shaped balance. Right now, the bottom voices are lacking in sonority compared to the top, and this makes a difficult situation for hearing and tuning.

    Good luck.

  7. #7

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Other than slightly shaky tritones in the real version,
    and some slippery playing as Bruce pointed out,
    very likely the sense of being out of tune is more due
    to the reverberation.

    One of the finer points of writing for orchestra is the
    consideration of how the "tails" (the reverberations) of
    notes will behave in a real hall.

    The reverberation of one note, for instance, may clash
    with the beginning of the next. In a more harmonically
    complex passage, the ear will often feel that as "out
    of tune".

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .

  8. #8

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce A. Richardson
    The second version is indeed out of tune with itself.

    I would rehearse it very slowly with sustains, so that the players can learn where they need to adjust for their particular role in the chord. In particular, when the bass has the minor third, it is sharp and is forcing the rest of the ensemble out.

    Also, the root/fifth relationships are stretched--sharp on top.

    The second thing I would do in rehearsal is get a pyramid-shaped balance. Right now, the bottom voices are lacking in sonority compared to the top, and this makes a difficult situation for hearing and tuning.

    Good luck.
    Thank you Bruce for your response. You say "The second version is indeed out of tune with itself". What exactly do you mean? Would this passage sound better with more professional players or does it need to be compositionally changed?
    Unfortunately I believe these performers where a little bit in a hurry when recording this. What do you mean when you say "In particular, when the bass has the minor third, it is sharp and is forcing the rest of the ensemble out."? In the very first chord you hear the string ensemble play it is a EM7: (bass E, cello G#, viola D, and violin B) There may be too many non-harmonic notes within the melody line of the measure. Next measure its a FM7 (bass F, cello C, viola D#, violin G# to A) then more non-harmonic writing. I guess I could do this passage better but my question is: With enough rehearsal time and practice would it be possible for the performers to perform it just like the "sample" version if they all stayed in tune with each other?

    Could you explain in more detail the "...root/fifth relationships are stretched--sharp on top"?? Should I always stack the strings in root position?

    As far as the "pyramid-shaped balance" the bass plays "marcato" on beat one of each measure and does not sustain. Is this what you mean?
    Thank you again for your help...

    Sincerely,
    Michael
    "...Wiktor's a Jekyll-Hyde personality..." - Lycos Music
    http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com

  9. #9

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by etLux
    Other than slightly shaky tritones in the real version,
    and some slippery playing as Bruce pointed out,
    very likely the sense of being out of tune is more due
    to the reverberation.

    One of the finer points of writing for orchestra is the
    consideration of how the "tails" (the reverberations) of
    notes will behave in a real hall.

    The reverberation of one note, for instance, may clash
    with the beginning of the next. In a more harmonically
    complex passage, the ear will often feel that as "out
    of tune".

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .
    Hi David, thank you for your help. Well, I don't think this is a very complex passage. I am also very careful with my voice leading. My writing for the most part is usually smooth.
    I really feel the performers were out, but I have to honest with myself and correct any compositional mistakes and learn from them. They performed this in a radio hall with no added re-verb during the mix.

    What I would like to do is post the entire string section recording on this forum so you can hear all the other "mistakes" or "out of tune" playing going on. However, the winds and brass were fine except for a few high bassoon staccato passages.

    Thank you for your help and please let me know your feelings on this.

    Michael
    "...Wiktor's a Jekyll-Hyde personality..." - Lycos Music
    http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com

  10. #10

    Re: Help Real Vs. Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by oldbob
    Michael, what i hear is:

    the second line (that starting with d, g#, e, eb, f, bb, a, maybe violas) is played in the sample rendition an octave higher than the real recording thus interfering with the first line of violins

    an excessive panning especially first violins

    no out of tune notes

    ciao

    Roberto
    I agree with Roberto. I feel the sample version's voicing too high, as a result, it sounds too harsh compared with the live performance which has lower middle voice giving fuller sound texture. I think if it is adjusted and given some reverb, the sample version should sound better.

    I like the live performance here, even with some out-of-tune sounds, because of its full "organic" momentum, which I believe can be achieved with samples by detailed tweaking of cc's and velocities.

    Sincerely,
    Jun Yamamoto
    Tokyo, Japan
    http://jun.music.coocan.jp/
    MIDI AND SAMPLING TECHNOLOGY HAS OPENED AN ENTIRE NEW WORLD OF MUSIC!

Go Back to forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •