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Topic: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

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  1. #1
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    Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Here you can ask questions and discuss Lesson 6...
    Gary Garritan

  2. #2

    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    I know 'english horn' is the translation, but doesn't everyone refer to the instrument as a cor anglais?

    Really good stuff though - I'm crap with woodwinds. Not necessarily solo, but as part of large tutti orchestrations I'm never sure what to do with them, so hopefully I'll be enlightened after a couple more lessons!
    _________________________
    ------www.wilx.co.uk---------

  3. #3

    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Quote Originally Posted by wilx
    I know 'english horn' is the translation, but doesn't everyone refer to the instrument as a cor anglais?

    Really good stuff though - I'm crap with woodwinds. Not necessarily solo, but as part of large tutti orchestrations I'm never sure what to do with them, so hopefully I'll be enlightened after a couple more lessons!

    same problem for me man.......and another question....is the english horn used in "tutti" sections and if yes for which reason? ...i mean the winds family is too big!

  4. #4

    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    "English Horn" and "cor anglais" are both common usage.

    The English horn can indeed be used in a tutti, but we won't be discussing that until we get to HARMONY in the woodwinds.

    Quote Originally Posted by aLfR3dd
    same problem for me man.......and another question....is the english horn used in "tutti" sections and if yes for which reason? ...i mean the winds family is too big!
    Alan Belkin, composer
    Professor of Composition
    University of Montreal

    http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/pers...n/e.index.html (links to examples of my music, as well as my online textbooks)

  5. #5
    Senior Member Leaf's Avatar
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    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Excelent work Robert.


    Gary,
    I have a Harp question.

    I decided to manually put the notes of the score example "cf. No. 8. Snegourotchka, Section 231 - Clarinet melody" from lesson 6, into Finale as an exersize because I'm learning Finale. Chose that one because I think the Clarinet in that one is awesome, kept playing it over and over wishing it was longer, plus I chose it because the Harp has cross staff so I need to learn how to do that.

    I started with the harp notes. All i have so far is one measure close to being right, but copied and pasted it to several other measures along with some pieces I saved reversed to do the last two measures, just so I could listen, and well, it sounds pretty awesome too.

    Is this set of 24 sixteenth notes in tuplets a very common chord or phrase for the Harp, and is it a hard one to play? Is it one that should be kept moderately short with some following rest for the players fingers?

    If it's not right for discussion of Harp yet, I don't mind waiting, I was just curious because it sounded like it would be a full plate for a Harp player.

    David

  6. #6

    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Quote Originally Posted by wilx
    I know 'english horn' is the translation, but doesn't everyone refer to the instrument as a cor anglais?
    Not in America. Common American usage is "English horn", while common British usage is "cor anglais". Not sure about other English-speaking countries.
    Marnen E. Laibow-Koser
    Composer / Web developer
    http://www.marnen.org

  7. #7

    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Quote Originally Posted by Leaf
    Gary,
    I have a Harp question.
    I'm not Gary, and harp is probably off-topic for a woodwind thread, but I'll give a quick answer. Gary, if you'd rather split this off into a separate harp thread, go ahead.

    I decided to manually put the notes of the score example "cf. No. 8. Snegourotchka, Section 231 - Clarinet melody" from lesson 6, into Finale
    [...]
    because the Harp has cross staff so I need to learn how to do that.
    Beautiful excerpt, isn't it? And if you need Finale help, feel free to e-mail or PM me -- I know the program quite well.

    [...]
    Is this set of 24 sixteenth notes in tuplets a very common chord or phrase for the Harp, and is it a hard one to play? Is it one that should be kept moderately short with some following rest for the players fingers?
    I don't see why it would be a problem. Harpists are used to this sort of figure -- in some pieces, it's about all they get to do. However, note one thing: at no time does Rimsky write more than four notes in either hand's segment of the arpeggio. This is good practice, since harpists only have four usable fingers on each hand (classical harpists generally do not use their pinkies, though some folk harpists do). I mention this because it can trip up pianists, who are used to thinking for five fingers on each hand.

    (Yes, I know the thumb isn't technically a finger. "Digit" just sounded too awkward!)
    Last edited by marnen; 06-17-2006 at 10:06 PM. Reason: typo
    Marnen E. Laibow-Koser
    Composer / Web developer
    http://www.marnen.org

  8. #8

    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Quote Originally Posted by marnen
    [*]In the comments about "natural order" at the end of the lesson, neither Rimsky nor Belkin mentions that it's quite common -- in fact, often desirable -- to put the clarinets higher than the oboes. This is often done to achieve a more brilliant sound, or simply because the clarinet can go higher than the oboe. In my opinion, this practice is too common to qualify as a real disturbance of "natural order".
    The point if RK's "natural order", I think, is to avoid getting into trouble with the low register of the oboe. And if the clarinet is used (melodically) much above the treble staff, the sound is much more strained then the flute, which is the "natural" inhabitant of this space. More of a special effect ...
    Alan Belkin, composer
    Professor of Composition
    University of Montreal

    http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/pers...n/e.index.html (links to examples of my music, as well as my online textbooks)

  9. #9
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    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Quote Originally Posted by Leaf
    Gary,
    I have a Harp question.

    I decided to manually put the notes of the score example "cf. No. 8. Snegourotchka, Section 231 - Clarinet melody" from lesson 6, into Finale as an exersize because I'm learning Finale. Chose that one because I think the Clarinet in that one is awesome, kept playing it over and over wishing it was longer, plus I chose it because the Harp has cross staff so I need to learn how to do that.

    I started with the harp notes. All i have so far is one measure close to being right, but copied and pasted it to several other measures along with some pieces I saved reversed to do the last two measures, just so I could listen, and well, it sounds pretty awesome too.

    Is this set of 24 sixteenth notes in tuplets a very common chord or phrase for the Harp, and is it a hard one to play? Is it one that should be kept moderately short with some following rest for the players fingers?

    If it's not right for discussion of Harp yet, I don't mind waiting, I was just curious because it sounded like it would be a full plate for a Harp player.

    David
    David,

    Arpeggiated passages like shown in Score Example #8 are common and even characteristic for the harp. An arpeggio is "the playing of the chord with its notes sounded in succession, rather than simulataneously".
    The term 'arpeggio' comes from the Italian word for harp or arpa.

    Argeggios can be played up ascendingly and down descendingly, in either direction, straight or in triplets (as in Example #8).

    This particular example is a natural progression involving few pedal changes and would not be difficult for a harpist.

    Gary Garritan

  10. #10
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    Re: Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

    Quote Originally Posted by marnen
    I don't see why it would be a problem. Harpists are used to this sort of figure -- in some pieces, it's about all they get to do. However, note one thing: at no time does Rimsky write more than four notes in either hand's segment of the arpeggio. This is good practice, since harpists only have four usable fingers on each hand (classical harpists generally do not use their pinkies, though some folk harpists do). I mention this because it can trip up pianists, who are used to thinking for five fingers on each hand.

    (Yes, I know the thumb isn't technically a finger. "Digit" just sounded too awkward!)
    Marnen,

    Good point you raise. Some composers write for harp like it is a piano (and some for seven-dactyl alien harpists ). The harpist uses only four fingers in each hand:, the thumb, 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers. The pinkie finger is not typically used. With the fingers perpendicular to the strings and the thumb up, the pinkie finger cannot be used effectively.

    It is important when composing for harp to keep in mind that a harpist will play a passage with up to four fingers on each hand.

    Gary Garritan

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