• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Topic: Orchestra Timing.?

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Orchestra Timing.?

    How tight should i try to get the orchestra?
    I uasually edit things super thight , and this gives it a very aggressive hard feel to it...
    But i dont really know how tight a realistic orchestra should be, i am using EWQLSO gold, wich is not really all that tight, so im wondering really...

    The timing as it is in EWQLSO fluxuates with, say -30 to +30 MS in refference to a click.
    So this creates a very loose feel, but sometimes i wonder if real players are a little more tight than that.?

    Like the double bassess and low woodwinds too, they are uasually not very tight in sample libs..so should i compensate, or is this just natural?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Steve_Karl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA 15206 USA
    Posts
    1,425

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pzy-Clone
    I was just wondering, how tight should i try and get the orchestra?
    i uasually edit things super thight , so every note is on a click, and this gives it a very aggressive hard feel to it, and its easy to get it to sound good.
    but i dont really know how tight a realistic orchestra should be, i am using EWQLSO gold, wich is not really all that tight, so im wondering really...

    the timing as is ,in EWQLSO fluxuates with say -30 to +30 MS in reffernce to a click. so this creates a very loose feel, but sometimes i winder if real players are a little more tight than that.
    like the double bassess and bass woodwinds too, they are uasually not very tight in sample libs..so shoild i compensate,or is this just natural?

    just in general really, i realise that needs may vary with genres.

    pzy
    Real players come in all varieties as do orchestras. My sister in law is a world class bassoonist and her timing and instrument are very accurate.

    If you're "sensing" looseness in timing in the programing of a library, then in my opinion that is a flaw in the library or possibly a problem with your computer.
    Ideally an instrument should respond to the demands of the most articulate players needs.

    Don't assume that because it is a sample library that it necessarily will be loose. After all, piano libraries are, for the most part, spot on, and very articulate.
    Accepting the looseness of a library because "some" orchestras may play loosely is not logical, in my opinion. Many orchestras play with great accuracy and precision.

  3. #3

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Make it sloppy only if you plan to imitate a sloppy orchestra. When a good orchestra is "on" it can hammer those accents right in the pocket. It will never be a string quartet or a jazz trio, but it can come amazingly close in the right hands.

    I suppose we get desensitized... it's thrilling that tossing that many players on stage works at all, let alone with complex music.

  4. #4

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Sounds like a latency issue, or perhaps the articulations you are using. And it all depends on the effect you are trying to achieve. No orchestra, no matter how skilled, will all the members play exactly at the same time. This is what adds the fullness and richness to the sound. I often offset notes a fraction, before or after the beat. to achieve that full, rich sound - and get rid of that awful midi thing - were every note of every instrument begins and ends together. Don't worry about what it takes to make it sound right, just make it sound right.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Steve_Karl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA 15206 USA
    Posts
    1,425

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Blaske
    Piano notes have a very definite, precise attack. Instruments like woodwinds and strings have a pre-attack to the note, which is very much part of the sound. If you edited this pre-attack off to tighten up the samples, the sample band would not sound very convincing. A real player watches the conductor and anticipates the attack, so that the meat of the note falls where it should.

    The thing to do is to become familiar with the feel of your sample libraries under your fingers, so you can properly anticipate the placement of your samples, so that things fall correctly into place. It really takes live playing, especially with a fluid, non-rigid click track. Higher notes speak quickly, and lower notes take longer to get going. So, if you quantize and try to move everything ahead by a fixed amount, notes at opposite ends of the instrument's range will not be placed correctly. One size of timing shift does not fit all. You really need to feel it if you want things to sound right.

    Lee Blaske
    Good advice for a beginner however:
    Expertly edited and recorded instruments have ~ consistent ~ pre attack characteristics. i.e. it is the same across the keyboard, or at least symmetrical in it's change, as it gets higher or lower.

    I never have an issue with these types of instruments and enjoy them very much ~provided~ they're produced with some type of precision.
    It's a very easy and immediate adaptation, no different than adapting to an envelope on a synth sound.

    The problems arise, for me, when the instruments are poorly edited or poorly recorded, and it becomes obvious that within that one instrument, the only way to predict or learn the instrument is to remember which notes are going to be late or too loud and which are going to be ahead or too quiet etc. etc.
    In other words, one does more work based on the shortcomings of the instrument.

  6. #6

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Blaske
    BTW, if you've ever played with a large orchestra, you'll notice there can be some sophisticated compensation that takes place so that the sound congeals and timing sounds tight out in the hall. For instance, violins will often play a bit behind the beat, because sound from the back of the orchestra takes longer to reach the audience. With a slight amount of delay from the players in front, the sound from the entire orchestra will arrive at the correct time.

    Lee Blaske
    Yes. Bass players sometimes have to start their note fractions of a second earlier until the tone develops and reaches the audience. A solo contrabassist once told me that they need up to a second in certain situations. Also the sound of the orchestra hit is different when grounded on a well developed bass tone.

    While reading about "humanizing" tempo and intonation I think that although live players produce a certain part of random that can make the sound richer on the other side many deviations are on purpose, maybe unconciously sometimes but not out of control.

    Hannes

  7. #7
    Senior Member Steve_Karl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA 15206 USA
    Posts
    1,425

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Blaske
    Not in most of the libraries that I've seen. It's essentially physically impossible. Lower notes take longer to get going.

    Lee Blaske
    ...or at least symmetrical in it's change, as it gets higher or lower.

    <G>

    S

  8. #8

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    So the conclusion is...if it sounds too sloppy in my opinion, then it probably is?

    I always have a problem with the bass ranges: double bass, bassoons and especially the brass.

    So if i think it should be tighter, and a real orhcestra could probably be as tight as i wanted, there is no need to accept the muddy timing right?

    There are no latency issues, and im a "experienced" cubase user, just was wondering... becouse i have never worked with a real orchestra and only recently got some better libraries.

    Any other opinions on the timing of EWQLSO gold xp?

    Im not really happy with the timing of the lib...but it sounds very good, in a polished cheesy kind of way.

  9. #9

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Hmm ... have you ever tried inserting a delay to control the sloppy bassons etc.?

    Hannes

  10. #10
    Senior Member Steve_Karl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA 15206 USA
    Posts
    1,425

    Re: Orchestra Timing.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pzy-Clone
    so the conclusion here must be..if it sounds too sloppy in my opinion, then it prbably is?
    i always have a problem with the bass ranges, double bass, bassoons and especially the brass.
    so if i think it should be tighter, and a real orhcestra could prbably be as tight as i wanted, there is no need to accept the muddy timing right?

    there are no latency issues, and im a experienced cubase user, and composer, i just was wondering, becouse i have never worked with a real orchestra, and only recently got some better libraries.
    any other opinions on the timing of EWQLSO gold xp?
    im not really happy with the timing of the lib...but it sounds very good, in a polished cheesey kind of way.
    hehe
    thanx.

    Pzy
    This is in Gold ( not XP )
    Try the keyswitched brass and wwinds.
    I've finally settled on a basic setup that never changes and the brass, wwind instruments I'm using are good for timing.

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •