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Topic: Holberg Suite with VI

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  1. #1

    Holberg Suite with VI

    Hi to all
    Here are some new VI-versions of Grieg's Holberg Suite!
    The question in another thread was:
    How does it sound with the new Vienna Instrument?
    Voilà...

    Praelude (close and dry mixdown)
    Praelude (more conventional mixdown)

    Sarabande (orchestra, excerpt)
    Gavotte (orchestra, excerpt)
    Rigaudon (orchestra, excerpt)

    Have fun
    Beat Kaufmann

  2. #2

    Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Fantastic. And dare I say - realistic. Sounds lovely.

  3. #3
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    Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Agreed. Seems likely to me that it has less to do with the instrument itself than with the mix. The VI mix sounds more compressed to me than the Horizon, and hotter, more "tubey", which doesn't serve the delicacy of the piece as well. In some other VI demos we've already heard an airyer, more open sounding mix employing the same sample sets (see, "Prayer" or the 12 cellos Bach prelude which was also mixed by Beat). Additionally, the Horizon demo tends to use spiccatto instead of legato articulations on the runs. While this choice was likely meant to showcase what the VIs can do in this regard, as a musical choice it does give the piece less delicacy and space. There's also portamento in the the VI version, and overall it is 'performed' in a more bow-on, dug in manner.

  4. #4

    Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Hello
    The upper Holberg-Praelude-Version shoud be a demo for the VI's power. A demo for short staccatos, > (accents), sffz, sfz, ffp,
    crescendos molto, diminuendos... like it is writen in the partiture of this movement.
    So perhaps I did to much from the musical view. But I like the piece in that way > powerful and crispy.

    Another point is the final downmix. In my opinion a demo should show the samples sound as clear and close as possible . So I tried to mix a close and "dry" movement.
    But - and I know that - interpretations and mixdowns are always a matter of tast too... So your feelings are OK like they are.

    For those who like a more conventional sound... (more ambience)
    Here we go
    Praelude (more conventional mix)

    Beat
    __________________________________________________ ____
    BTW where can I listen to Fabio's Praelude? The link is dead...

  5. #5

    Smile Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Dear all,
    I would like to clear up some point:

    ABOUT VIENNA:

    -I'm not against Vienna L or Vienna VI at all, of course. They are excellent products, I would like to own, if they were less expensive. (the price of light modules is now more affordable, but still challenging. For the same price you may buy tons of good samples from other producers. I don't say what is better, it's a matter of personal targets and quality needs: clean or expressive? professional or educational, or live-sounding? etc.)

    - I think that even if the sound is clean, professional and very well recorded, the expression of Vienna VI is still less effective than other existing products, because of the strong caracter of articulations! Sometime the crossfading or paste of single articulatons is producing the feeling of two different players alternating, instead of a single player changing articulation. It's more evident in solos (solo strings for instance).

    ABOUT HOLBERG SUITE PRELUDE:

    - the rendering of classic master piece is not just a matter of sounds and technology, but a matter of musical taste and style also.

    - this version of the Holberg prelude is far better than previous one, and the programming is quite accurate. I still find weak some point, and I tell you where respectfully, as my personal humble opinion, because I still respect the professional doing it:
    > the repetition is sometime still very mechanic, and seems in some points too robotic to be true. Little micro-variations of sound, attack, duration in fast repetition are necessary IMO. Is it a limit of quick programming or a limit of the library?
    > the Grieg piece is not a Baroque piece even if written in "ancient style" I don't agree with the too flat lack of vibrato and the compression of dynamics: IMHO as every romantic piece it should be better with pianissimo, cantabile and furious crescendo. But it's a matter of performance: I think that probably Vienna gives you all that tools.
    > the cello line makes the controcanto to violin cantabile: IMHO it must be as expressive as the violin is. Violin sings very flat, but cello is too, really too much flat. It sounds very MIDIsh even if the sound is realistic.

    ABOUT MY VERSIONS:

    I DON'T say my version is better. It's quite different, starting fromn the target, that is my musical taste, not (or not only) the technology used. Another point is the total (very affordable) "price" of library used to make it.

    - I did the following versions (restored the link):
    Version with wide reverb and Stradivari Solo violin, imitating old recordings of romantic conductors, KHSO and GPO

    Demo for Kirk Hunter, using only Emeral SO and CS

  6. #6

    Thumbs up Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Listening again to the various versions (including the wonderful crispy sound clean and so realistically recorded of Vienna VI) of the piece, and thinking about progress, I feel very Happy!

    What all those products are doing today is wonderful! We are quickly evolving the synthetic music to a new artistic dignity, still far form good live music, but day by day closer and enjoyable!

    I'm excited about the future, and I start now saving money to buy computers and VI of tomorrow, I will be so happy of using to make my music!

    My congratulations to all musicians and producers that make it possible.

  7. #7

    Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Hi Beat,

    I'm quite interested in what sequencer [Cubase, Sonar etc] you did the Holberg suite demo with.
    Thanks if you could let me know this.

    best regards,

    Steve Martin.

  8. #8

    Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio

    A) the repetition is sometime still very mechanic, and seems in some points too robotic to be true...Is it a limit of quick programming or a limit of the library?
    B) the Grieg piece is not a Baroque piece even if written in "ancient style"
    C) the cello line makes the controcanto to violin cantabile... It sounds flat.

    Listening again to the various versions (including the wonderful crispy sound clean and so realistically recorded of Vienna VI) of the piece, and thinking about progress, I feel very Happy!
    Hi Fabio
    Nice to get to know you and thank you for giving such a constructive feedback.
    Here are my replies. But first of all:
    I'm not sure whether you know the PARETO-rule or not - the 20/80 rule. It says that you spend 80% of your money for 20% of things. Or 80% of your phone calls are to 20% of your circle of acquaintances. You can adapt this 20/80 rule to nearly all facts. So in my case I did 80% of the Holberg Suite in 20% of the time. The other 80% of time I would need to finish the last 20% (to the absolut 100% maximum of demand). I can tell you - I you know it as well - Until now I used hours for it. So I like to go on with other pieces now.

    to A) The VI has repetition samples. I believe that 8 notes are in a row. These repetition-samples fight against the robotic sound. Sometimes I used them but I also used the short staccatos. The are even more chrunchy as the repetition-spiccatos. The disadvantage: The sh-stacs are single notes with only two varation. > Perhaps you noticed this as the robotic-sound. To put this right I should vary every note in its volume... like here.

    to B) Grieg is not a baroque piece - yes. Therefore I used sfz- sffz-, fp-, ffp-, cresc-, dim, p-legato, p-detaché-, expressive-, marcato-, harsh-... samples.
    I further had the score (Eulenburg Edition) and a CD played by the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-field with Sir Neville Marriner. > I tried to copy this orchestra - so to say. And nevertheless I have the experience of more the 35 (38) years playing the violin. Sometimes it also helped.

    to C) Yes I agree: The cello line sounds flat. The VI owns tons of samples which I don't know all at the moment. Fact is that I fiddled around for minutes to create this "dolce" part. But I couldn't found exactly the samples to come to the idea I had in my mind. But I had to go on > Pareto.
    Nevertheless I now worked out the cellos in a better way by using the track automation. So If you want to check the new result please click on: Praelude (New Cello/Violin Mix)

    All the best from Switzerland and have nice Easter-days
    - though the weather forecast is not very good for our countrys

  9. #9

    Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Quote Originally Posted by steve martin
    Hi Beat,
    I'm quite interested in what sequencer [Cubase, Sonar etc] you did the Holberg suite demo with. Thanks if you could let me know this.
    best regards,
    Steve Martin.
    Hi Steve (again )
    I use Cubase SX3 but I "growed up" with Logic. Unfortunately Emagic turns away from the windows users. A lot of knowledge was worthless.
    Today I'm familiar with Cubase as well. It would be a good thing to take all the good things/functions from both of them and creat a new Sequencer > perhaps a Cubogic. In my very first days Cakewalk (DOS) was in use which is Sonar today - I believe.

    All the best
    Beat

  10. #10

    Re: Holberg Suite with VI

    Hi Beat,

    thank you for your answer

    best regards,

    Steve Martin.

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