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Topic: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

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  1. #1

    EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    Hello everyone,

    I recently celebrated Worra's B-day by purchasing WG Jr and Steiny D Close, both multi-format downloads. Thank you once again for the great deal Worra!

    I just finished downloading WG, and maybe its because its 4:08am, but it sounds like two different pianos depending on which format I use, EXS or Kontakt 2. To me, the EXS version sounds much brighter, and tends to be more touch sensitive in performance, where as the K2 version is much more mellow, and does not seem as responsive to variations in velocity. Why is there such a substantial difference between these two? They dont even sound like the same piano! Am I doing something wrong?

    I do understand that EXS does not use the same release samples, so I put the EXS version on my internal drive, and the Kontakt 2 version on my firewire, re-expaning all files twice. I am using the instrument files provided by Sampletekk with no tweaks (not even reverb).

    I have posted a quick demo for comparison (sorry in advance, I'm not a piano player). The K2 version is first, followed by the EXS, using the EXACT same midi file. http://www.avartists.com/WGjr.mp3

    As you can hear, there is a BIG difference. Anyone have any wisdom they can share as to why? If you would like screenshots of my settings I will be happy to upload them in the morning, just tell me what you want to see.

    Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. And thank you once again for the great deal Worra! HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY

  2. #2

    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by JT3_Jon
    Hello everyone,

    I recently celebrated Worra's B-day by purchasing WG Jr and Steiny D Close, both multi-format downloads. Thank you once again for the great deal Worra!

    I just finished downloading WG, and maybe its because its 4:08am, but it sounds like two different pianos depending on which format I use, EXS or Kontakt 2. To me, the EXS version sounds much brighter, and tends to be more touch sensitive in performance, where as the K2 version is much more mellow, and does not seem as responsive to variations in velocity. Why is there such a substantial difference between these two? They dont even sound like the same piano! Am I doing something wrong?

    I do understand that EXS does not use the same release samples, so I put the EXS version on my internal drive, and the Kontakt 2 version on my firewire, re-expaning all files twice. I am using the instrument files provided by Sampletekk with no tweaks (not even reverb).

    I have posted a quick demo for comparison (sorry in advance, I'm not a piano player). The K2 version is first, followed by the EXS, using the EXACT same midi file. http://www.avartists.com/WGjr.mp3

    As you can hear, there is a BIG difference. Anyone have any wisdom they can share as to why? If you would like screenshots of my settings I will be happy to upload them in the morning, just tell me what you want to see.

    Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. And thank you once again for the great deal Worra! HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY
    Hi

    Thanks!

    It could be that the EXS24 version reacts differently to velocity then the K2 version. I think I have noticed that EXS24 sometimes act a bit weird, or maybe I should say, different, compared to other samplers when it comes to velocity response
    Worra
    SampleTekk

    Arf, arf, arf...

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    312

    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    I recall an article by Ernest Cholakis of Numerical Sound that compared the velocity responses of all samplers and to my surprise, EXS had the most even curve. Almost all of the others were skewed to the high end, making access to quieter samples difficult. Made me want to get Logic -- almost

  4. #4
    Senior Member
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    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    That's right !
    I raise exactly the same point here about K2, with a (I hope) useful tuning to improve ppp playability :
    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=43776

  5. #5

    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurent
    That's right !
    I raise exactly the same point here about K2, with a (I hope) useful tuning to improve ppp playability :
    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=43776
    Yeah, I read that earlier in the week. Though I thought that only applied when you were translating formats to K2. Since I was using the files that came with the piano, I thought I was safe

    I downloaded an applied it, and it does make the K2 piano more responsive to velocity changes, though there still is a major difference between the basic tones of the same piano with the two players. The EXS, no mater how soft I play it, still sounds brighter than the K2, with the higher velocities of the EXS actually sounding painful. Any ideas on whats going on here?

    I hope its not just "weird EXS." Is ANYONE using Sampletekk pianos with EXS? As of now I am very glad I got both versions, as the EXS is almost unusable, which leads me to believe I'm doing something wrong.

  6. #6

    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    [QUOTE=JT3_
    I hope its not just "weird EXS." Is ANYONE using Sampletekk pianos with EXS? As of now I am very glad I got both versions, as the EXS is almost unusable, which leads me to believe I'm doing something wrong.[/QUOTE]

    I just recently added TBO, White Grand and White Sister to my Logic/EXS rig. I have not found the WG to be as problematic as you describe. It is most definitely BRIGHT but I was expecting it to be so. Definitely not suitable to be used in every situation but sits nicely in a dense track.
    I'll have a better grasp on the 3 of them in a month or two.
    JP

  7. #7

    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymio
    I just recently added TBO, White Grand and White Sister to my Logic/EXS rig. I have not found the WG to be as problematic as you describe. It is most definitely BRIGHT but I was expecting it to be so. Definitely not suitable to be used in every situation but sits nicely in a dense track.
    I'll have a better grasp on the 3 of them in a month or two.
    JP
    Thanks for the post! I'm glad to see an EXS brother with me I am using WG jr, so I dont know how much of a difference that makes. I too expected it to be bright (I bought it for "pop use" not beethoven), Does your WG sound like my sound file? (EXS version is the 2nd one).

    I think the problem lies in the fact that I hit the 127 velocity level too easy with EXS, where as it seems to fit just right with K2 (thanks to the curve update!) Do you by chance know if you can change the velocity curves for EXS instruments, or should I adjust my velocity curve on my keyboard?

    What amazes me is the HUGE difference in sounds between the two players! That doesnt seem right, though judging from the replies so far, I guess it is?

    p.s. Anyone with WG jr on EXS, if you dont mind, I would love to send you the midi file I made and see if it sounds the same on your system.

  8. #8

    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    I have most of the Sampletekk pianos and run them all on EXS24, but have nothing to compare them to. I'm still faffing (a technical term... ;o) ) about with them with the Velocity Offset, since lot of the stuff I do is rock and needs a hard edge to it.

    TBO
    White Grand
    White Sister
    Black Grand (Close)
    Vertikal Pop and Jazz
    SG88
    Rain Piano

  9. #9

    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    I have had a similar observation. I acquired the Steiny D multiformat during the birthday sale. (Happy Birthday Worra and thanks!) I figured I'd use it in Kontakt when I want tweakability and EXS when I want efficiency. But I was surprised at how different the piano sounded between the two: dark in K2 and bright in EXS. Not just differences in volume, but in frequency response, as if different samples were being triggered for a given velocity. When I saw in this thread that I'm not alone, I investigated further, and found that indeed different zones were being triggered (in EXS vs K2) for a given velocity, even though the mapping to velocity ranges is the same.

    Then I discovered that the EXS version of Steiny D has the "Vel Offset" parameter (upper left of the EXS window) set to +33. I didn't find a corresponding velocity offset in the Kontakt version. So I suspect that this is the major source of difference between the two.

    I don't have the Steiny D Close or the WG jr so I can't check them, but it sounds like the same might be true for them.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: EXS & K2: Same Sampletekk piano, two completely different sounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by aplanchard
    I recall an article by Ernest Cholakis of Numerical Sound that compared the velocity responses of all samplers and to my surprise, EXS had the most even curve. Almost all of the others were skewed to the high end, making access to quieter samples difficult. Made me want to get Logic -- almost
    This is, however, to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. If someone maps a particular instrument to a particular sampler, this is a total non issue. It's only when translating to another format without making an adjustment that this will become an issue. When you're talking about something as complex as the session plan for recording a piano, where you're deeply multisampling and creating an instrument plot based upon session recording volume adjustments per layer, etc., then ultimately how the sampler responds to a common sine source over its velocity range is not the point. It's what the ears and mapping plan of the sample developer combine to produce, on the particular platform, which matters.

    It's a nice thought, but a rather ludicrous one, to think that all soft-synths are going to respond or sound the same. The velocity curve would be simply one issue. How does a soft-sampler lighten its load when it starts to become processor bound? Disk bound? What buffering/smoothing of CC input is taking place in the engine to confront zipper noise and jaggies?

    When you start picking out one little aspect of soft samplers and comparing them, it can skew the overall picture quite a bit. I'm not suggesting anyone is doing so, but this velocity curve thing is becoming slightly larger than its actual consequence.

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