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Topic: Ci controller still a mystery to me

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  1. #1

    Question Ci controller still a mystery to me

    I still dont understand C1, even though I have read and read Page 23 of the manual.
    "The midi script automatically plays in poly mode.... if the time interval is below 20 milliseconds" - OK but why? I repsume 'time interval' means time interval between note ons?
    then the next para says "If the time delay (=interval? ) between the start of overlapping notes is above this threshold then the instrument plays in mono mode" ........... in this case the note transition will be legato or portmento depending on velocity (my paraphrase)

    Something has not clicked for me...

    Question 1 Why have this 20 millisecond rule?
    Question 2 What is the difference in Strad terms, and aurally, between portmento and legato? Surely portmento is the blending of one note with the next and so is legato - for instance, on a trumpet, legato means dont tongue each note seperately? I dont know about violins though...
    Core i7 920, Win 7 RC 64, Cubase 5 64, Omnisphere, Trilogy, RMX, EWQLSO Plat EW Choirs, GPO, Stradivari, Gofrilla, Absynth 4, Halion 3, Kontakt3, BFD2, VSL Strings, JBridge running all 32 bit apps well.

  2. #2

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    I think the 20 ms rule allows you to either play single-note lines you'd usually find in violin parts, or to play "double-stops" across two strings (which I take to be a lesser percentage of the time: others may correct me!), at the player's whim within one setup. If you wanted just poly, then there's an appropriate keyswitch.

    I'd personally like if the 20 ms limit were a *little* higher. Maybe I'm just not precise enough with my fingers.

    As to portamento vs legato, portamento would have implied pitch sliding, while legato is only the discrete change between notes without an expressed articulation for the second. As with your trumpet example, a violin would likely do this by fingering the second note without changing bow direction (or otherwise accenting the next note).

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

  3. #3

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    Thanks Markleford, you have cleared up the legato/portmento issue for me - legato is a transition between two notes without a marked attack but not necessarily with pitch slide. Yes I can see this now.

    you said:
    I think the 20 ms rule allows you to either play single-note lines you'd usually find in violin parts, or to play "double-stops"
    I can see that one would either want to play a series of single notes or one might want double stops, but what has 20 msecs got to do with it? As I believe it to be (and I am a newbie here), if you have a series of notes with ends that overlap the starting position of the subsequent note then this produces legato, conversely, if the midi 'note off' of the note ends before the 'note on' of the next note then this would produce a standard - non legato note.

    I feel like I am being dense here (I had the brain scan and they said there was nothing to worry about)

    Back to the manual for me....
    Core i7 920, Win 7 RC 64, Cubase 5 64, Omnisphere, Trilogy, RMX, EWQLSO Plat EW Choirs, GPO, Stradivari, Gofrilla, Absynth 4, Halion 3, Kontakt3, BFD2, VSL Strings, JBridge running all 32 bit apps well.

  4. #4

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    Zero Zero,

    The logic behind this is to allow playing double stops and chords while in the default (C1) mode.
    Up to four notes are considered simultaneous, and hence played as a chord, if the corresponding keys are pressed within 20 msec. This interval was chosen on the basis of the actual behavior of a ordinary keyboardist trying to play simultaneous notes.

    Increasing this interval may lead to incorrect functioning when playing very fast legato passages, which could be interpreted and played as chords.

    The transition between portamento and legato is a continuous one. As you may see from the script window, on increasing note-on velocities, you’ll get complete portamento (complete pitch slide for start to end note), partial portamento (incomplete pitch slide), legato (minimal pitch slide with some additional trick).

    Thus, Markleford explanation is entirely correct.

    Giorgio

  5. #5

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    The 20 ms is a "time window" in which the player determines whether two notes you play are meant to be separate or together.

    In this mode, if you play two notes at the same time (or at least within 20 ms), then both notes will sound. If you play a note and the second note starts beyond 20 ms of the *start* of the first, it will be detected as a note change (either legato or portamento, depending on the keyswitch setting).

    This means that if you play an interval of a 4th with the notes together, then you'll hear a double-stop. If you play the first note and then the second after 20 ms of the first, you will hear a single note line with a quick pitch change, as with a little bit of a pickup note.

    Try playing two notes precisely together a few times. Then start to delay the second note just a little bit, more and more until you no longer hear the two notes together. Hopefully this will demonstrate where the 20 ms switchover takes place.

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

  6. #6

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    I should have written: "Up to four notes are considered simultaneous, and hence played as a chord, if the corresponding keys are pressed within 20 msec, and the initial polyphony is zero". This because chords can only be played in non-legato mode.

    Under these conditions (no previous note held), the script needs to establish if, say, the first two notes are to be played as a double stop or as a attack note + legato note. The criterion of choice is conveniently based on the time interval between the two. If almost simultaneous, they will be played as a double stop. If above 20 msec, the first note will be played as an attack + sustain, while the second note will be a legato/portamento note.

    I don't know if I succeded in making it clearer. My NMR scan was also (almost) normal. Not sure if it will help though

  7. #7

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    OK
    Hi Giorgio and thanks for devoting so much time to answering me. I think the manual is well written, I am just stuck on this one bit.


    I have just spent the last hour discussing the C1 question - pouring over every sentence of the manual trying to make sense. Your post helped a lot, but I dont yet fully understand. I am still stuck.
    Here are some of my basic starting (errorsome?) assumptions:

    1] "Legato" is an orchestral term that was originally applied to violins but which usage has spread across to other instruments. Every instruments way of producing legat is different according to the contruction of the instrument
    2] Some instruments, such as the piano cannot play legato because they MUST make aa new attack every time they make a note.
    3] On the sax legato means 'dont tongue next note' and this means that the sound of the first note goes through a 'baffle' as the second fingering is pressed'. A similar kind of thing on a trumpet, there is no second "TTH" tounging on the second note - the air passing through the bore is diverted down different tubes in the trumpet and there is a short 'baffled' phase whilst the key is between the two fingerings. This is what woodwind players call "legato" and this is dissimilar to 'portmento' or pitch slide which only the trombone is able to achieve.
    Now the violin is not my instrument but as I understand it legato is performed by the violinist changing the pitch with his left hand on the fret, but the bowing in the right hand doews not alter - wherease non-legato notes are 'seperated' from eachother by altering the direction of the bow stroke (commonly) but where this is not practical at least giving emphasis to each seperate note.

    Double, triple, quad, stops are produced by bowing more than one string at a time.

    (Whew! got this off my chest!)

    Now I guess we are all talking avbout the same thing?????

    Now the Strad program, as I understand, offers legato OR polypony (-double stops etc).
    Now I suppose that it would be a rare event for a real violinist to perform legato polyphonic phrases - in other words play two strings with legato phrasing.....hmmm.... bu I think this is beside the point???

    I think what is happening here is that when:

    Up to four notes are considered simultaneous, and hence played as a chord, if the corresponding keys are pressed within 20 msec, and the initial polyphony is zero".
    As you put it, this is to ensure that in fast phrases each note gets an opportunity to sound?????

    No I am not sure. Am I lost? I dont even know.

    Got to go to the shops now, my 17 year old idaughter being 'persuasive'. Back in an hour
    Core i7 920, Win 7 RC 64, Cubase 5 64, Omnisphere, Trilogy, RMX, EWQLSO Plat EW Choirs, GPO, Stradivari, Gofrilla, Absynth 4, Halion 3, Kontakt3, BFD2, VSL Strings, JBridge running all 32 bit apps well.

  8. #8

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    Thanks Guys - the penny started to drop whilst I was in the car... I think!

    Its all about the program knowing how to distinguish beween an instruction to play two or more notes in concord, or whether to play the 'overlapping' notes as legato - that is morphing one to the next.

    Sub 20 milliseconds between 'note on' messages = interpret as chord = use polyphony instruction in script.

    Over 20 milliseconds between 'note on' messages = interpret as "legato/portmento" call 'morph one note into the next' instruction from the script

    This is it I think?


    Zero
    Core i7 920, Win 7 RC 64, Cubase 5 64, Omnisphere, Trilogy, RMX, EWQLSO Plat EW Choirs, GPO, Stradivari, Gofrilla, Absynth 4, Halion 3, Kontakt3, BFD2, VSL Strings, JBridge running all 32 bit apps well.

  9. #9

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    "Some instruments, such as the piano cannot play legato because they MUST make aa new attack every time they make a note."

    Piano certainly can play legato. There is a very marked difference when connecting notes with the legato technique as opposed to unconnected notes with non-legato technique. There is still a hammer striking the string, but it is a very different sound. Legato doesn't just mean eliminate the attack. It means connect the notes in a phrase.

    From wikipedia: "In musical notation legato indicates that musical notes are played smoothly. That is, in transitioning from note to note, there should be little to no silence between notes. Legato technique is required for slurred performance, but unlike slurring, legato does not forbid rearticulation."

  10. #10

    Re: Ci controller still a mystery to me

    You got it, Zero.

    And as per dbudde, I suppose there's a little fuzziness to the application of the term "legato". But let's not try to confuse things more.

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

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