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Topic: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

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  1. #1

    Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Cello 3, dry, wet, any player, solo, whatever:
    When I play back the MIDI file in ACID or FL STUDIO,
    it sounds great. When I render it to WAV, the file gets cut off.
    This happens in ACID or FL STUDIO.

    If I change to Cello 1, Player1, for instance, the file plays back fine,
    AND RENDERS CORRECTLY.

    WHY do different sample patches behave differently in this regard? WHY is it fine for playback, but rendering gets cut off?

    I have noticed this before on occasion, but I just spent 3 hours of my precious work time figuring out exactly when it happens. All notes are fine except for the last one. I think it has something to do with sustained notes as well, but you got me as to why.

    Also, you can add me to the list of people that find the default volume/mod wheel extremely annoying. In cases like this where I am having to load up tons of different sounds to try to chase what are obviously bugs, it really adds up. I would probably have had enough of it by now were I simply making music as well.

    What were they thinking?

    Anyway, if you can help without passing the buck, I would appreciate any insights.

    My machine is very clean. My programs are fresh, clean installs.

    Please assume this is a bug before you assume I am doing something wrong.
    I may be at fault, but the chances are far more likely this is a bug of some kind.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Tom Crowning's Avatar
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    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Quote Originally Posted by nutrapuppy
    Cello 3, dry, wet, any player, solo, whatever:
    When I play back the MIDI file in ACID or FL STUDIO,
    it sounds great. When I render it to WAV, the file gets cut off.
    This happens in ACID or FL STUDIO.
    I don't own FL or ACID, but I have some general thoughts
    about your problem:

    GPO doesn't know at all if it's used for playback or rendering to wav
    -> that rules out GPO or its samples

    What's the difference between playback and rendering to wav?
    Both are identical but rendering additionally writes a LARGE file to disk,
    that means your disk drive has to work (theoretically) twice as much.

    Why Cello 3, not Cello 1? I don't have GPO here at work, but most
    probably either the sample files of Cello 3 are bigger and/or some
    of the sample files are fragmented.

    I'd try to de-fragment the disk, if that does not solve your problem
    try to render to a different disk if available.

    The last option would be to render each track individualy to remove the
    stress for the disk drive.



    Quote Originally Posted by nutrapuppy
    Also, you can add me to the list of people that find the default volume/mod wheel extremely annoying. In cases like this where I am having to load up tons of different sounds to try to chase what are obviously bugs, it really adds up. I would probably have had enough of it by now were I simply making music as well.

    What were they thinking?
    My solution: Before each track, I record 1/4 note where I just scroll the
    wheel all way up, all way down and then to the setting it shall have at
    the beginning of the song.
    You only have to do this once, and for similar tracks I just cut&paste it.

    Hope this helps.
    Tom

  3. #3

    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Quote Originally Posted by nutrapuppy
    All notes are fine except for the last one. I think it has something to do with sustained notes as well, but you got me as to why.
    If I understand the problem you mention, I just add a blank bar or two at the end. This works every time for me.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  4. #4

    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Crowning
    My solution: Before each track, I record 1/4 note where I just scroll the
    wheel all way up, all way down and then to the setting it shall have at
    the beginning of the song.
    You only have to do this once, and for similar tracks I just cut&paste it.

    Hope this helps.
    Tom
    Same thing for me Tom. I add a bar at the beginning, and record any settings first. And at the end of any work i add approx. two bars.
    Easy.

    Regards,

    Alex.

  5. #5
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    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Quote Originally Posted by nutrapuppy
    Also, you can add me to the list of people that find the default volume/mod wheel extremely annoying. In cases like this where I am having to load up tons of different sounds to try to chase what are obviously bugs, it really adds up. I would probably have had enough of it by now were I simply making music as well.

    What were they thinking?
    We were thinking of a way to provide expressive dynamic control so you can shape notes and phrases in real time. And using a controller almost everyone has. CC#11 had no standard controller on most keyboards so the Mod wheel seemed like a logical choice. The previous paradigm of note velocity provided a flat line dynamic that was constant. We considered this approach to provide more expression and musicality for the user.

    Depending on the sequencer you use, you can set load default levels. Also, some sequencers have a check box that automatically resets controllers to "0". This may be the problem. Make sure this setting is not enabled on your sequencer.

    Gary Garritan

  6. #6

    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    What's the difference between playback and rendering to wav?
    Both are identical but rendering additionally writes a LARGE file to disk,
    that means your disk drive has to work (theoretically) twice as much.
    Well, theorically the disk shouldn't have to be working twice as much in a limited amount of time if only VST wasn't a lousy c*ck-*ss standard, programs could take their time to buffer all the audio they want on an illimited number of channels, took one year if they needed to render to disk and in the end the rendered file would be perfect. But it appears when making a VST pluing you're not free of doing that. The WHOLE POINT about rendering is that you don't normally need to care about synchronization of any kind or latency, since you decide to give you computer all the time in the world to RENDER the file, and discard the real-time constraint !!!

    It's RIDICULOUS that this issue even exists when we're somewhere after 198x... Screw all you bad bad programmers out there who make our life so difficult creating obsolete problems of this kind, designing their software as if we where still stuck in the early 90's.

    I know this isn't the place, but I'm really sick of having this issue that shouldn't be one and seeing that many many people still have it and that everyone has to come up with ridiculous tricks to try to avoid it.

    I have 4 gigs of RAM in a $2500 PC for goodness.

    angry Nino.
    News & Music here.

  7. #7

    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Further testing has determined that some other instruments do the same thing...for instance, a BB Clarinet? Fine. A Bassoon? Cuts off.
    Reproduceable problems writing to either my local or USB hard drive. Both are 7200RPM, defragged, and have over 30 gigs available.


    I have been able to come up with several workarounds, like rendering the part in two waves and editing them together. I had already tried the add-bars suggestion. I did this by painting in some extra notes which I could easily mute in the waveform. Unfortunately this did not help. Cuts off in the same place. It does not seem to like the longer sustained notes.
    And let it be known that I AM rendering each track individually. I can playback tons of stereo waves at once.

    Isn't that a weird one? Am I alone? Sounds like someone else is having this same problem and is a bit angry?

    Yes, its easy to get frustrated. What I am finding recently is that it is impossible for any programmer to handle all their own bugs given all the variables. Its extremely complicated stuff with big ugly specs interpreted by many different manufacturers.
    It is not our fault as consumers. We don't write the ads or develop the products to sell. If someone delivers a product with problems, they of course deserve to hear about it. Some of us will be gentle, some of us will be furious and irrational, some of us will just eat dirt while shoveling out more $ for updates....all permutations apply.

    I just want to get any current batch of problems solved before I dive into a new mess of them. I just got hit really hard by a lot of unexpected problems. So far every manufacturer, from Garritan to Sony, have been pretty decent about helping with problems. The big ? in this matter is Native Instruments. Their forum is just desolate and I have yet to receive an email response.

    And lastly, I do like being able to control the volume with the mod wheel, i just hate that its always at zero when I load a sample. Have I come up with workarounds? Sure. Would I like to add my voice to those who would rather not have to workaround it? Yes indeed.
    I'll check and see if I can force a max vlume when loading. Never looked for that setting.

    Thanks, all!

  8. #8

    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Quote Originally Posted by nutrapuppy
    ..... I had already tried the add-bars suggestion. I did this by painting in some extra notes which I could easily mute in the waveform. Unfortunately this did not help. Cuts off in the same place. It does not seem to like the longer sustained notes.
    The added bars at the end in Finale must be empty, no notes at all, and the bars need to be left. Inserting 'hidden' notes or adding notes then muting them won't work as you discovered.

    Any bars added at the start in Finale should also be left for exporting the file as a MIDI file.

    Once your score has been rendered as a wave file, the added time at the start could then be removed in a wave editor. I also listen to the ending in the wave editor to see if anything needs to be trimmed.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  9. #9

    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk
    The added bars at the end in Finale must be empty.
    I don't use Finale.
    When I make a MIDI file, the last event seems to be the end of the midi file.
    If I take a note and move it back in time, then the release of that note becomes the end of the file.

    I don't know what else to put in there to make it "longer". Some random CC info?

    I'll try a few things.

    If putting some Nothing at the end of the file works, then why does not putting some Something at the end of the file work?

    I should probably just accept that it does, but I can't help wanting to know.

    Any tech people care to comment?

    Also, I am not trying to render a score. I just want to get the output of a single VST instrument into Wav so I can sequence it as audio. I work far more efficiently this way.
    Last edited by nutrapuppy; 02-10-2006 at 02:34 PM. Reason: addressing further

  10. #10

    Re: Playback? Fine! Render to wav? Cutoff

    You people rock.

    I just threw some garbage CC information at the end of the file and it renders correctly.

    I would still like to know why.
    If you or someone you know can explain it, please stick it in here. There are sure to be many more who run into this problem.

    This is probably in every manual, and listed on every VSTi forum as a sticky, and is stamped on the front of any product bearing a VSTi logo. I just seem to have overlooked it.
    Far be it from me to just start pushing buttons and miss such critical information!

    Thank you so much for your help. Your support is saving tons of time and stress.

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