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Topic: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

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  1. #1
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    Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    A Wide Panorama of Orchestral Colors

    It's a great time to be a musician. Just a few years ago, most orchestral libraries had a four digit price tag. The landscape has changed and orchestral sampling has been democratized. With Miroslav Philharmonik, Kirk Hunter, EMU Modern Orchestra, the new Siedlaczek Classical, JamPack4, VSL, Opus 1 & 2, different permutations of EWQL, MOTU Orchestra, Edirol HQ, SI Symphonic Orchestra and others. In addition, there are the bundled orchestral sounds included with Giga3, Kontakt2, Notion, Dimension, Finale and other music programs. There is an increasingly wide array of orchestral colors and tools to choose from and more will be coming.

    Good times for musicians and I hope the trend continues. The more colors for the artist the better.

    Sonic Incompatibility Among Libraries


    With all of these libraries available, one of the problems faced with is sonic incompatibility. The difficulty with getting sounds from different libraries to match is that they are recorded in different spaces. The signature sound of the hall is different and getting them to sound like they are in the same space can be a challenge.

    Many users are using GPO along with other libraries with excellent results which is something for which I am glad (some of these demos even appear on the GPO Demo Forum). But the mixing and matching can be perhaps improved with impulses.

    We are testing a new way for orchestral library users to match their libraries and help them to work together. The upcoming 'Real Spaces' impulse library attempts to solve exactly the type of problem faced by users of multiple sample libraries.

    The Spaces:

    By having multi-positional impulses recorded in the spaces where some of the sample library sessions took place, we thought it may help in bridging the gap among sample libraries and getting them to work together.

    There will be reverb samples (impulses) of the following spaces where some of the libraries were recorded:
    • Dvorak Hall Rudolphium, Prague (where Miroslav was recorded)


    • Sonic Temple, Boston (where Sonic Implants Orchestra was recorded).

      http://www.sonic-temple.net/#space
    In addition 'Real Spaces' also will provide impulses from a number of premium acoustical venues such as the Vancouver Chan Centre, Janacek Hall, a 13th century Cathedral, Harvard Chapel, the Village Vanguard Jazz Club (one of the best Jazz clubs), the Katerinska Caves, and other ambient spaces). In some of these venues, there were upwards of 100 player positions recorded on stage with up to 15 mike placements in the audience.

    Using these multi-positional impulses may allow better sonic compatibility among the libraries. There are also possibilities with deconvolution as well. Other benefits would be getting non-orchestral instruments (such as ethnic or pop instruments) to work in an orchestral environment. We think this is an interesting and useful technology and this may be beneficial for sample library users. In time we'll see how well this works.

    What do you think?

    Gary Garritan

  2. #2

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garritan
    It's a great time to be a musician.

    What do you think?

    Gary Garritan
    I think you're absolutely right...it IS a great time to be a musician. And I'm grateful for developers (and human beings) like you out in the world looking to make it a better, more musical place.

    What do I think about 'Real Spaces'? In theory, it sounds great. And if it fulfills its promise half as well as GPO has, then it will be a homerun. Can't wait to give it (and GPOA ) a test run...

    Keep up the good work!

  3. #3

    Thumbs up Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    Wow. I remember reading the first notice for "Real Spaces", and didn't catch the fact that many locations matched up to where other libraries were recorded. That's brilliant. While I don't go to many orchestral sounds beyond GOS and GPO, that could change now that I've updated to Kontakt 2 in order to run the Stradivari Solo Violin. I'd imagine that the included VSL content would be servicable in augmenting some sections - something to certainly consider in adding to my template when Real Spaces is released.

    Although, I think it's entirely possible to provide a good match between orchestral sounds right now with a careful mix and judicious use of EQ and reverb (and not just with samples - see one of my previous posts on how the organ and orchestra from a definitive recording of Respighi's "Pines of Rome" were indeed recorded at seperate times and places to make a tremendous, cohesive performance), this should certainly make that task much easier and more convincing. I think the real barrier right now is processing power - if someone is going to go "full hog" and place each instrument with an impulse, there either has to be a significant improvement in the efficiency of the convolver, or there needs to be a substantial increase in horsepower for a baseline DAW (whatever that might be).

    I guess it would be possible to do a mix with a good far-mic stereo impulse on the main bus, and then when going to final render - bypass the impulse on the mains and use freeze/bounce to pipe an individual instrument through a positional impulse in order to lock in the placement - now that I'm thinking about it, it does have a nice "ring" to it. Likewise, it *will* be especially nice to get ethnic instruments and synths to really mesh as well. The more I think about it, the better I like it.

    As I wrote in the other "blend" thread, it would be interesting to have some recorded passages run against VI renders with positional impulses to see if anyone can discern the difference in a double-blind test. I think "Real Spaces" will prove out as a serious step forward in adding realism and compatibility between sample libraries, synths, and recorded live instruments. I guess the next questions are "when" and "how much"?

    Houston Haynes - Titan Line Music

  4. #4

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garritan
    A Wide Panorama of Orchestral Colors

    It's a great time to be a musician. Just a few years ago, most orchestral libraries had a four digit price tag. The landscape has changed and orchestral sampling has been democratized. With Miroslav Philharmonik, Kirk Hunter, EMU Modern Orchestra, the new Siedlaczek Classical, JamPack4, VSL, Opus 1 & 2, different permutations of EWQL, MOTU Orchestra, Edirol HQ, SI Symphonic Orchestra and others. In addition, there are the bundled orchestral sounds included with Giga3, Kontakt2, Notion, Dimension, Finale and other music programs. There is an increasingly wide array of orchestral colors and tools to choose from and more will be coming.

    Good times for musicians and I hope the trend continues. The more colors for the artist the better.

    Sonic Incompatibility Among Libraries


    With all of these libraries available, one of the problems faced with is sonic incompatibility. The difficulty with getting sounds from different libraries to match is that they are recorded in different spaces. The signature sound of the hall is different and getting them to sound like they are in the same space can be a challenge.

    Many users are using GPO along with other libraries with excellent results which is something for which I am glad (some of these demos even appear on the GPO Demo Forum). But the mixing and matching can be perhaps improved with impulses.

    We are testing a new way for orchestral library users to match their libraries and help them to work together. The upcoming 'Real Spaces' impulse library attempts to solve exactly the type of problem faced by users of multiple sample libraries.

    The Spaces:

    By having multi-positional impulses recorded in the spaces where some of the sample library sessions took place, we thought it may help in bridging the gap among sample libraries and getting them to work together.

    There will be reverb samples (impulses) of the following spaces where some of the libraries were recorded:
    • Dvorak Hall Rudolphium, Prague (where Miroslav was recorded)


    • Sonic Temple, Boston (where Sonic Implants Orchestra was recorded).

      http://www.sonic-temple.net/#space
    In addition 'Real Spaces' also will provide impulses from a number of premium acoustical venues such as the Vancouver Chan Centre, Janacek Hall, a 13th century Cathedral, Harvard Chapel, the Village Vanguard Jazz Club (one of the best Jazz clubs), the Katerinska Caves, and other ambient spaces). In some of these venues, there were upwards of 100 player positions recorded on stage with up to 15 mike placements in the audience.

    Using these multi-positional impulses may allow better sonic compatibility among the libraries. There are also possibilities with deconvolution as well. Other benefits would be getting non-orchestral instruments (such as ethnic or pop instruments) to work in an orchestral environment. We think this is an interesting and useful technology and this may be beneficial for sample library users. In time we'll see how well this works.

    What do you think?

    Gary Garritan
    Gary I think this is aalready pretty good with Altiverb 5 for Mac users but for PC users perhaps it will be a help.
    Composer, Logic Certified Trainer, Level 2,
    author of "Going Pro with Logic Pro 9."

    www.jayasher.com

  5. #5

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    I really like the idee, is it goin to be VST? how is that gonna work? any idee what the price gonna be? Thanks.

  6. #6

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashermusic
    Gary I think this is aalready pretty good with Altiverb 5 for Mac users but for PC users perhaps it will be a help.
    I don't get it Jay - does Altiverb already have these houses impulsed? (I looked at their site and didn't see the "Real Spaces" venues listed) Also, I thought Altiverb could load third-party impulses, perhaps you can shed some light on how you think Altiverb already fills the void - since so many people put stock in the actual venues where samples were recorded.
    Houston Haynes - Titan Line Music

  7. #7

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    It's been what seems like a long time since the initial announcement. Have you decided on a format? I'm for .wav or .aif so we can use them with our choice of convolution engine. Or are you planning on teaming with an existing developer?
    Ben N. Moore

  8. #8

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garritan
    Using these multi-positional impulses may allow better sonic compatibility among the libraries. There are also possibilities with deconvolution as well. Other benefits would be getting non-orchestral instruments (such as ethnic or pop instruments) to work in an orchestral environment. We think this is an interesting and useful technology and this may be beneficial for sample library users. In time we'll see how well this works.

    What do you think?

    Gary Garritan
    I think you need to review the current vehicles capable of handling convolution reverb to determine how to most effectively implement your IRs. For example, you have:

    Pristine Space
    GS 3 with GigaPulse
    GigaPulse VSTi
    Kontakt
    Samplitude Real Time Convolution
    Sequoia Real Time Convolution
    Waves
    Space Designer
    Sound Forge
    Altiverb

    The issue isn't just picking Beneroyal Hall. Let's assume we're using GOS. I want to place the strings in their respective onstage positions. How do implement that with each of the above programs?

    Keep in mind that in a few weeks, some of us will have the Vienna Instruments which are recorded similar to GOS. Which one of the above programs would we use to position and effect the strings, and then the rest of the orchestra in their onstage positions?

    YOu've got the IRs, but what's the best delivery vehicle to use with them to achieve onstage seated positions?

    FYI, for those who don't know, Tascam finally posted the GigaPulse manual. It's available for download now.
    Peter L. Alexander
    www.professionalorchestration.com
    www.alexanderpublishing.com
    Learn it right the first time.

  9. #9

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Music
    OK.. I maybe be looking like a real idiot after this, but I have to ask. I'm VERY new to convo reverbs so please be gentle. I have played a little with the one that comes with Sonar and have seen options like near and far for a particular space. I have also looked up a few of the other ones on the market. But I don't remember seeing anywhere were you could pick a different location on the stage of a particular environment. This obviously makes perfect sense because that would have a major effect on reflections and the like.

    Is there a convo reberb that allows you to put each instrument into it's own stage location like this? I know this would create quite a CPU load, but dang couldn't you freeze the tracks and then mix them?

    OK.. now I have a headache trying to think about this.

    Tom
    Gigapulse does exactly that. Yes, it is a resource hog, but you can bounce the tracks and then mix them.
    As it happens I don't like any of the IRs that come with GP, but that's my choice. I also think that it doesn't work as well as it ought to regarding perspective and panning.
    Another option is Altiverb, which does a similar thing. I have no view on this as I currently use PC, but I'm sure to try out the PC VST version when it is released.
    I think that GG's idea of sampling the spaces that ambient libraries are recorded in is an excellent one, as it will enable much better mixing and matching. What we also need is a deconvolver that gets rid of the ambiance so that one can apply a new space to samples recorded in a reverberant hall :>))

    D

  10. #10

    Re: Can Sample Libraries be Interchanged and Matched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Houston Haynes
    I don't get it Jay - does Altiverb already have these houses impulsed? (I looked at their site and didn't see the "Real Spaces" venues listed) Also, I thought Altiverb could load third-party impulses, perhaps you can shed some light on how you think Altiverb already fills the void - since so many people put stock in the actual venues where samples were recorded.

    It has some similar spaces like Mechanics Hall in Worcester and many other great halls. If you put all the samples from the various libraries through a good hall IR they do blend better. And Altiverb 5 allows you to position them on the stage.

    And also IMHO the weakness of some of these libraries is the halls they chose, not their strength.
    Composer, Logic Certified Trainer, Level 2,
    author of "Going Pro with Logic Pro 9."

    www.jayasher.com

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