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Topic: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

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  1. #1
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    EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    Hi - originally posted this on the Sounds Online forum, but wanted to see if any of you guys have any answers/ideas/suggestions.

    I have loaded C, F & S butter legato forte violins into Kontakt2. I have done so as individual instruments, and as a multi. As I get up towards the top of the playing range, there is this wierdness going on - there is an artifact in the sample(s). It sounds almost like wind, for lack of a better way of describing it. I have done nothing to these samples - they are raw, untweaked, out of the box. There is a short 256k .mp3 here:

    http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/violins.mp3

    and I have to say, the .mp3 is in fact an accurate representation of what the samples actually sound like.

    Now, I received some responses. The first response was that the sound is the bow against the string. That I do not buy. Next suggestion was to ease up on the velocity - that didn't really help. Next, was eq. Nope - eq the very mid-range "wind sound" out, and you kill the violin sound. Then it was said, "If you've ever stood in front of a violin section and had them play way up the register as loud as they can, then that's exactly what it sounds like". Really???

    Then, Doug Rogers said, "It's exactly what it sounds like in front of the instrument" Again, I say, Really??? Maybe it does, but that just does not sound right to me. Then he said, "Listen to the distant mics, you won't hear it there" Wrong. Sorry Doug, but it IS there.

    Now, I admit that if there is enough going on with the rest of the orchestra, the problem is not too apparent; it does in fact get masked. But still....And I did check out the VSL samples that came with Kontakt2, and indeed, they suffer from the same "problem".

    Any thoughts? What do you guys do when presenting a final product, and you don't (for whatever reason) have the rest of the orchestra playing to 'hide' this issue? Any workarounds?

    Thanks much!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    I'm not trying to be flippant, but have you ever played in an orchestra? Have you ever stood in front of a violin section?

    They're right. That is exactly what violins sound like. That undertone of "friction" is actually as important to a violin section sound as anything else. Of course, at different dynamic levels, there are different quantities of it. But this is very characteristic. It is not an artifact.

    Consider that you **are** hearing the same thing in VSL. That is simply what violins sound like. They're not as sweet and mamby pamby as one might imagine, haha.

  3. #3

    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    Quote Originally Posted by RiffWraith
    Now, I received some responses. The first response was that the sound is the bow against the string.
    That is indeed the sound! Not an artifact to me too. There is nothing to hide!

    Honestly I doubt you can find any string library without this bow/rosin sound hehe. Unless you go for synth strings.

    Cheers,
    Frankie
    Dell Precision T3500 (Xeon W3520, 12GB RAM) / Windows 7 x64 / Sonar 8 / VE Pro / WIVI 2.3 / Kontakt 4 / G-Player 1.2

  4. #4

    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    If you have access to the samples you can do a very good job of removing the rosin sound with the right tools and leave 99% of the rest behind. (i've tried with both flutes and violins to get rid of the human element (rosin noise or breath)). Flute seemed a bit harder but i finally had some luck there too. Theres actually a lot of low noise to the rosin sounds and its not just mid range. Problem is, when you're playing the noise shifts between the varying harmonics so one eq isnt going to do a great job for a series of different notes, so you have to treat each sample separately. The interesting thing though is you can mod wheel the noise back so you can add in rosin "to taste" if you wish.

    steve

  5. #5

    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    That's exactly how violins are suppose to sound......during a snow storm.

    Just kiding, it's thrue but this one is kind of special caus the bow noise is as strong as the note it self whitch is a problem, i anderstand commpletly.

    In EW's defence i think it might be the downside of having sutch good mics and technitien behind the bord, i think that's why we hear all the little noise on this lib., the mics are just too sensitive, could that be the case?, i'm not shure??? But it seems a little bit out off tune,...HE! HE!....i couln't help it.

  6. #6
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    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    Jeff - it's bow noise. And welcome to the world of sampled strings in the high register.

    Sampled strings are the worst kind of nightmare out there at the moment in my view. It's all to do with tone.

  7. #7
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    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    Hey guys - thanks for the replies.

    No, I have never played in an orchestra, nor have I ever stood in front of a violin section. And no - I do not want to go for synth strings per se, tho I have to admit that the Roland expansion board strings are not that far behind the platinum strings quality-wise, and exhibit very little of that noise.

    I am actually really surprised to find out that "that is the way they sound" and that the sound is in fact the bow/rosin. Huh. So, what do you guys do to compensate? Or do you not bother? Anyone have any recordings (be it demo or release or other) where that 'problem' shows up that they would care to share?

    Thanks again!

  8. #8
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    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    Quote Originally Posted by RiffWraith

    No, I have never played in an orchestra, nor have I ever stood in front of a violin section. And no - I do not want to go for synth strings per se, tho I have to admit that the Roland expansion board strings are not that far behind the platinum strings quality-wise, and exhibit very little of that noise.

    I am actually really surprised to find out that "that is the way they sound" and that the sound is in fact the bow/rosin. Huh. So, what do you guys do to compensate? Or do you not bother? Anyone have any recordings (be it demo or release or other) where that 'problem' shows up that they would care to share?

    Thanks again!
    Jeff - You do what Bergenson did and record your own personal string library.

    It's not actually the way they sound per se. That is not a completely accurate statement. Any sample is just a snapshot in time that you will hear over and over again everytime you load up that patch for instance. Real strings are far more organic and changing in nature. Strings and in particular sampled strings in the high registry are the biggest tonal problem (along with probably trumpet(s) ) in sampling today. No commercial company has solved it as yet. I will email you a string thing if you wish and you'll hear what I mean.

  9. #9

    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    Quote Originally Posted by RiffWraith
    ... the Roland expansion board strings are not that far behind the platinum strings quality-wise...
    Come to believe there may be a problem with your ears if you really think so.

    This topic and the mp3 reminds of the times I used to put up my microphones in the opera house orchestra pit - right in front of the conductor's podium for radio recordings. I used to put them so close to his stand that he often slammed my microphones with his hands when he was doing his gesture-magic-communication with the orchestra members. Once he became so mad at me, he stepped down the podium and lowered the mic's 3 feet, while 1.500 people in the audience and the full concertgebouw orchestra + chorus were waiting for him in total silence....
    I left the opera not long after that. Not related though
    Best regards,
    Michiel Post


  10. #10

    Re: EWQL Platinum Vioilns not sounding quite right...

    Just checked my Yamaha S90ES - it also has some rosin noise in some samples too - not nearly as pronounced as your sample though.

    steve

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