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Topic: Finale playback with GPO and JABB

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  1. #1
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    Finale playback with GPO and JABB

    Here is a short snippet from "Joanna" by Henry Mancini (from the book Sounds and Scores.) This was played by Finale 2006 with Human Playback turned on. Note all instruments except Horn are from JABB, and the Horns are from GPO. There was no editing of any sort in SONAR. This audio file is in AAC format, so you must use iTunes (or equivalent) to play it back. All software has been brought up to date (Finale, GPO, JABB.)

    http://bellsouthpwp2.net/k/s/kswalls/Joanna.m4a

    Keith Walls

  2. #2

    Re: Finale playback with GPO and JABB

    Hi Keith
    The first orchestration book I owned!!! My parents bought it for me my 16th birthday in 1962 and it was perfectly chosen. At the time I bought every new Mancini recording that came out (Mr Lucky, Peter Gunn, Pink Panther (of course), And many more). And I really wanted to learn to write/compose/arrange.

    What GOT to me was his harmonic approach, particularly his signature move of #11 to natural 5 inside a dominant while the rest of the voicing stays put. And the INCREDIBLE breadth of orchestration in a jazz context. He wasn't just having the ww players play footballs (whole notes - thought I'd clarify in case this was Toronto jargon) on alto or bass flute. He was really using these interesting colours. And the control and variety of mutes.

    Plus, the book is outstanding in its clarity. Anyway, I read your note and listened to your rendering and experienced a little nostalgia. Thank you.

    'Joanna' is lush and warm and wonderfully smooth (can't remember if the brass are muted, but wouldn't be surprised...and I can't check as the book is in my office and I am at home. And a REAL challenge for JABB

    You need lots of controller usage here. I realize that you were just letting Finale do the work, but I have found it doesn't work too well unless you add a lot of slur and phrase markings. Probably drop in controller data for tone colour (this needs to sound DARK in the brass as you know).

    I hear that what Finale and JABB gave you was the right notes, but less than ideal articulation and feel. That is why I have not used Finale's playback for any of my own projects' final renderings. I use the HP playback while I am scoring when desired, but I don't worry about settings too much. Then I print the score and start playing the parts, one at a time, into Digital Performer4.6 ( I'm on a Mac). There I think you have complete control of feel and can really control articulation much more effectively. I have read that this is what was intended with JABB. Playing in the parts with slight imperfections in each part, gives the affect of the real thing. and the layering is nice too. The you can mix and go to town.

    Incidentally in Finale which HP setting did you use? There are several options of course. You should use "incorporate data".

    I don't know Sonar at all, so no comment there about what it might have done. But doesn't Tom use it? I think so.

    I think Tom Hopkin's article on how he rendered the piece out of Gary Lindsay's book is outstanding and worth a read. It parallels what you are doing in this project. You have a wonderful reference recording and a score. Exactly what Tom used....you probably have read it, but I thought I would mention in case you haven't.

    I am inspired to try a few of these excerpts myself now that I have heard your Joanna and use Tom's path as a way to achieving as realistic results as possible. SHould be fun because you can go back and forth in the DAW (mine is DP4.6) and check to see how your parts fit the original in their balance and articulation and feel. And can help with the final mix.

    Anyway. I'll bring this rambling posting to a close and hope that you will sense my appreciation for posting this music (which I love) and also my sincere attempt at making constructive suggestions.

    All the best.

    Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithW
    Here is a short snippet from "Joanna" by Henry Mancini (from the book Sounds and Scores.) This was played by Finale 2006 with Human Playback turned on. Note all instruments except Horn are from JABB, and the Horns are from GPO. There was no editing of any sort in SONAR. This audio file is in AAC format, so you must use iTunes (or equivalent) to play it back. All software has been brought up to date (Finale, GPO, JABB.)

    http://bellsouthpwp2.net/k/s/kswalls/Joanna.m4a

    Keith Walls
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    458

    Re: Finale playback with GPO and JABB

    Quote Originally Posted by daerp@mac.com
    . I realize that you were just letting Finale do the work, but I have found it doesn't work too well unless you add a lot of slur and phrase markings. Probably drop in controller data for tone colour (this needs to sound DARK in the brass as you know).

    I hear that what Finale and JABB gave you was the right notes, but less than ideal articulation and feel. That is why I have not used Finale's playback for any of my own projects' final renderings. I use the HP playback while I am scoring when desired, but I don't worry about settings too much. Then I print the score and start playing the parts, one at a time, into Digital Performer4.6 ( I'm on a Mac). There I think you have complete control of feel and can really control articulation much more effectively. I have read that this is what was intended with JABB. Playing in the parts with slight imperfections in each part, gives the affect of the real thing. and the layering is nice too. The you can mix and go to town.

    Incidentally in Finale which HP setting did you use? There are several options of course. You should use "incorporate data".

    I don't know Sonar at all, so no comment there about what it might have done. But doesn't Tom use it? I think so.

    I think Tom Hopkin's article on how he rendered the piece out of Gary Lindsay's book is outstanding and worth a read. It parallels what you are doing in this project. You have a wonderful reference recording and a score. Exactly what Tom used....you probably have read it, but I thought I would mention in case you haven't.

    I am inspired to try a few of these excerpts myself now that I have heard your Joanna and use Tom's path as a way to achieving as realistic results as possible. SHould be fun because you can go back and forth in the DAW (mine is DP4.6) and check to see how your parts fit the original in their balance and articulation and feel. And can help with the final mix.

    Anyway. I'll bring this rambling posting to a close and hope that you will sense my appreciation for posting this music (which I love) and also my sincere attempt at making constructive suggestions.

    All the best.

    Paul
    Thanks for responding. Yes, I agree, Finale and Overture (you can't even do this with Sibelius... yet...) don't have the built-in tools to make this sound even close to real, but I wanted to show just how much better things are than even just a year ago in the notation/sequencing world. As Tom Hopkins has stated in other places both publicly and privately, he is hoping the Notation Giants (Finale, Sibelius) will incorporate some of the "techniques" one can add manually through a sequencer into their software and make it somewhat "automagic." Of course, jazz is much more difficult to make sound human by a machine. Articulations, trumpet shakes, doits, glisses, vibrato, falls, etc. are very human endeavors and are hard to teach a machine to do well. You also have the problem in most jazz charts that the piano/guitar/bass/drums are almost never written out. If you have a drummer friend or a drummer yourself, you can put it in manually. If you're a jazz pianist, you can also put it in manually. But I've yet to see any package (including BIAB) that does a really bang-up job of creating rhythm tracks for a Notated jazz chart. (new software genre challenge- Drummer in A Box, Pianist In A Box.)

    Anyway, that entire sequence took only a few minutes to enter. To go back and add a lot of expression manually will be the next thing I attempt. But if you think about it, even the fully automated realization is a godsend to people like myself who are learning to do jazz arranging. To be able to actually HEAR the music as well as look at it on the page is invaluable. Students have tools today that the great jazz composers/arrangers of yesteryear would have killed for.

    Keith Walls

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