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Topic: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

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  1. #1

    Is there a way to eliminate the connection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    This has of course been brought up before, but I haven't seen much discussion:

    Is there a way to eliminate the relation between velocity and amplitude in midi? At one time,this relationship was desirable: with limited RAM, the need was for as few samples as possible, so recording high velocity strikes was good. Playing softly made the loud sounds soft. Now, the automatic amplitude reduction seems like a limitation: a soft strike piano sample is forced into a too low a volume to hear, although the sound may be clear if the actual wave file is listened to in a wave editor. But the timbre of the high velocity strike is still present.

    So shouldn't there be a way to make midi respond to velocity, so differing velocities excite different samples that were recorded at different amplitudes, without otherwise changing the amplitude? And shoudn't this arrangement be simple to implement?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    Wouldn't that require 127 separate samples for each note?

  3. #3

    Question Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    Are you guys drunk?
    Houston Haynes - Titan Line Music

  4. #4

    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    Haha - almost fell off my chair Houston.

  5. #5
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    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Johnson
    This has of course been brought up before, but I haven't seen much discussion:

    Is there a way to eliminate the relation between velocity and amplitude in midi? At one time,this relationship was desirable: with limited RAM, the need was for as few samples as possible, so recording high velocity strikes was good. Playing softly made the loud sounds soft. Now, the automatic amplitude reduction seems like a limitation: a soft strike piano sample is forced into a too low a volume to hear, although the sound may be clear if the actual wave file is listened to in a wave editor. But the timbre of the high velocity strike is still present.

    So shouldn't there be a way to make midi respond to velocity, so differing velocities excite different samples that were recorded at different amplitudes, without otherwise changing the amplitude? And shoudn't this arrangement be simple to implement?
    Hi JJ,

    I'm not sure that I'm understanding you. My understanding of velocity is that, often with some curve rather than being purely linearly proportional, the faster you strike the keyboard the higher the velocity value it transmits. This value will be between 0 and 128.

    If you have a single sample then the audio is produced at volumes proportionally related to these velocity values transmitted.

    If you had four sample layers then the first would take 0-32, the second from 32-64, for example, and so on. The audio volume of that second sample, for example, would still respond correctly from the 32 level to the 64 level.

    It's only that the sample that is switched as you pass certain, audio volume, levels.

    This is my (hopefully not mis-) understanding of how it works!

    Frank

  6. #6
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    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    I believe this modulation is adjustable in most sampler.
    (it is in Kontakt)

    There is another problem underlying that : amplitude / velocity relationship is not linear, and every sampler has his own way to manage it.
    There is a very interresting study about that in SOS 2nd DVD (basically EXS provide the most "natural" modulation, i.e. compared to accoustic life experience)

    I think this is why you can't have exactly the same feeling when you translate a native library of one sampler to another sampler...
    This gives me headhaches (sometimes ) with piano libraries (well) developped under Gigastudio and translated to Kontakt.

  7. #7

    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    in order to playback a pp sample at its original volume when triggered by a low velocity value the sample needs to be normalized.
    If you dont normalize you would get a totally unusable loudness response curve where the not normalized pp sample is almost inaudible when triggered softly.

    Hans

  8. #8

    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    Hans:
    That's what I'm wanting: a way to play back the sample at its original volume without midi causing a change in volume, so normalizing would not be needed. The change in amplitude would be the change in amplitude of the actual sample. I'm not sure 127 layers would be needed: What would happen if we were able to get just 50 or so samples per layer. Some of the big pianos are almost at that number, now.

    Would the leaps in amplitude just be too abrupt?

    But, yes, I was drinking.

  9. #9

    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    You are right, you can set the velocity to volume response to 0 if you like in kontakt and use the velocity layers for different samples (like velocity articulation switching) or have samples that are not normalised.

    Thing is.... if a sample takes, lets say 10 velocity zones (0-11), those will not be velocity sensitive.
    Theo Krueger - Composer

    www.TheoKrueger.com

    Kontakt 2 Scripts

  10. #10

    Re: Is there a way to eliminate the conection between amplitude and velocity in midi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Johnson
    Hans:
    That's what I'm wanting: a way to play back the sample at its original volume without midi causing a change in volume, so normalizing would not be needed. The change in amplitude would be the change in amplitude of the actual sample. I'm not sure 127 layers would be needed: What would happen if we were able to get just 50 or so samples per layer. Some of the big pianos are almost at that number, now.

    Would the leaps in amplitude just be too abrupt?

    But, yes, I was drinking.
    velocity controls volume only because it was programmed to. if you don't want velocity to control volume, simply turn that controller off. in kontakt, open the modulation panel beneath the amplifier module and delete the velocity module. velocity will still trigger the different dynamic layers.

    the fewer dynamic layers sampled, the more abrupt the leaps in amplitude will be.

    normalizing to 100% KILLS dynamics. a pp sample normalized will have the timbre of a pp sample but the loudness of a forte sample. whatever you do, do not do that!

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