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Topic: "real vibrato" ?

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Nigel W's Avatar
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    Jan 2003
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    "real vibrato" ?

    Regular LFO vibrato sounds cheesy & artificial. Sampled vibrato is fixed in the sample.

    Why aren't there any "real vibrato" LFOs, which "breathe" available? Or something similar...(maybe there are)?

    Last night I was watching the DVD "Art Of Violin" again, where Yehudi Menuhin comments admiringly on the many different kinds of vibrato used by David Oistrakh. It's a fundamental aspect of sound and interpretation for so many instruments.

    Vibrato is simply a variation in pitch and amplitude....isn't this something Kontakt 2 could do well?

    Calling all masterminds ;-)!!

    Nigel

  2. #2

    Re: "real vibrato" ?

    Nigel again, (I try to write slowly) ;-))
    All the oscillator methods, even in kontakt, sound artificial. You are right

    The best way is to control the pitch and volume shift with a hardware slider.
    The problem with pitchwheel is, its not one of the 127 standard midicontrollers.

    But if you own a hardwarecontroller that lets you asign a slider to pitch, that could be easiler to control than pitchwheel.

    Another way, wich I included in my library, is doing a pitch or volume shift with the sustain pedal.
    If you have a fast foot, you can do a vibrato with cc64

    I´m working on a script for kontakt2 wich does vibrato in a automatic, but not as sinus like way.
    But this will take some more weeks.

    A fantastic, but with 300$ a bit expensive way is the doepfer ribbon controller
    In adition to the ribbon, wich controls pitch, there is a second feature aftertouch, wich can control volume or expression:
    http://www.chrishein.net/sl_seiten/s..._chh_video.htm

    Chris Hein
    Chris Hein - Horns / Chris Hein - Guitars / Chris Hein - Bass
    http://www.chrishein.net

  3. #3

    Re: "real vibrato" ?

    Real vibrato seems to affect amplitude and pitch as well as timbre/"pressure". If you have a non-vib sample and you're using Kontakt, you could try rigging it with pitch, amplitude, and filter LFOs that respond to one controller for depth and another for speed.

    Otherwise, if you have a solo instrument that has vibrato in the sample already, you can actually control that using the "Time Machine" function. Set a controller to automate the speed, and it'll play through the sample with whatever vibrato speed you want. You should be able to make some shorter notes sound non-vib with this, too.


    I'm pretty sure you're talking about solo instruments primarily, but even for sections you can kinda trick the ear into hearing vibrato control by using crossfades. Just set a controller to handle volume, get two groups together with different levels of vibrato, and have it crossfade into it. This particular method works better with sections than it does with solos because the phasing that occurs while crossfading isn't as noticeable with ensembles (they're already phasing with themselves). You'd think this trick would be used more often for vibrato, but I guess it's mainly used for volume crossfading and so the increases in vibrato are just implied.

    With EWQL though, you can try giving the 11v-Lyrical patch (heavy vibrato) a longer attack and perhaps smooth it with filter or reverb, and using the 18v-sus patch (less vib) as your basic patch. You can just fade in a new overlapping note on the 11v-lyr when you need some more vibrato on it. Unfortunately the 11v-lyr patch dies down after 1-2 seconds, so a simple crossfade won't work in this case.
    Wilbert Roget, II
    Composer
    Rogetmusic.com

  4. #4

    Re: "real vibrato" ?

    The very best vibrato emulation is with a small ribbon controller, like on the Kurzweil 2500/2600. You can play it just like a real string, roll your finger to produce controlled vibrato - no LFO!
    Dasher
    -------
    It's all about the music - really. I keep telling myself that...

  5. #5

    Re: "real vibrato" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by thesoundsmith
    The very best vibrato emulation is with a small ribbon controller, like on the Kurzweil 2500/2600. You can play it just like a real string, roll your finger to produce controlled vibrato - no LFO!
    Don't you find the response on the Kurzweil ribbons a bit 'slow'? It feels like they're (at a wild guess) 10-20ms behind playing. I find them quite hard to use when playing a line.

    BTW, totally agree with Nigel W. An asymmetrical vibrato shape for an LFO where you can control amplitude depth, and pitch depth, and LFO rate on-the-fly is a good start.

  6. #6

    Re: "real vibrato" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by command_shift
    Don't you find the response on the Kurzweil ribbons a bit 'slow'? It feels like they're (at a wild guess) 10-20ms behind playing. I find them quite hard to use when playing a line.

    BTW, totally agree with Nigel W. An asymmetrical vibrato shape for an LFO where you can control amplitude depth, and pitch depth, and LFO rate on-the-fly is a good start.
    I've not had that problem with delay (perhaps because I'm so slow at it myself?) By the time I got the feel for what I wanted, the delay was not an issue, it's sort of like playing a note on the piano, you start movikng the finger before the note sounds - I just move woth it; it's a whole lot better than whatever is in second place (except maybe the ribbons on the Yamaha and Roland keytar rigs.) The AX1 ribbon works quicker, I think, but it uses absolute positioning for center, strike it in the right place or be out of tune, the Kurz uses your position as zero till you release and press again, maybe that's the source of the delay...)

    Either way, the ribbon is my LFO of choice, although I usually wind up with the mod wheel anyway, as I'm playing more than one part.
    Dasher
    -------
    It's all about the music - really. I keep telling myself that...

  7. #7

    Re: "real vibrato" ?

    Have any of you guys played a Nord Lead?? They have a wooden controller for pitch that is amazingly expressive. It would be great for playing violin samples.

    Anyway, I agree that some form of "modeled" LFO, or at least more complex one for these types of vibrato/tremelo is a great idea- wonder why no one thought of it before??

  8. #8

    Re: "real vibrato" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredProgGH
    Anyway, I agree that some form of "modeled" LFO, or at least more complex one for these types of vibrato/tremelo is a great idea- wonder why no one thought of it before??
    Too busy winning the sample-count race

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