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Topic: Intelligence design (part3)?

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  1. #1

    Intelligence design (part3)?

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    Oh, I guess this is it:

    So science as it's practice today is headed in the wrong direction. Life is more of a quality than a quantity and life creates it's own energy which already violates a rule of modern day science

    And I have to ask you what the ~~~~ that means.

    Seriously, what are you talking about?! With all due respect, my reaction to this kind of blanket, farting statement is the same as when people say there's no point in studying music. You know, it kills the soul - music creates its own energy, and studying it doesn't give you that...or some such ~~~~.

    Just as the people who say that are invariably too lazy to study music (and usually destined to discover - often too late - that their innate talent will only carry them so far), people who say things like what you're saying have rarely studied science.

    (I haven't studied science very much, but I do find it interesting and don't just write it off.)

  2. #2
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    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    See Ars, this is what you get when you confuse spiritual matters with the physical world

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    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    Thanks Nick for part three (looking forward to part two of VI

    Quote Originally Posted by runamuck
    The notion of the aura, in most people's minds, is usually tied to the spiritual in one regard or another.?
    Unfortunatly true. But that fact that it's been studied with great intensity by the scientific community (and no more by the atheistic Soviet regime) shows that the spiritual crowd has no monopoly on it and that it may have scientific properties.

    Quote Originally Posted by runamuck
    The question is, if there is an aura, (and I'm not implying that there isn't), what is it, what's it's significance? If ...the aura is some kind of extra-physical thing, well that's incredibly significant and proof of it's existence would imply that our world-view, science's world view, would need to be completely overhauled.
    I don't know about that. If you consider the human body has thousands of miles of vascular wiring and billions of brain cells etc., that it has other characteristics not fully understood seems very plausable. I boggle much more at the inner workings of the body than it's emanations. It does have emanations we understand (heat, electromagnetic) and perhaps some we don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by runamuck
    Now the thing about the scientific method, the beauty of it, is that someone like you DPC and like you, ArsNova, are free to go about changing our minds about things like auras and souls.
    There are scientific postulates put forward in journals every day with lots of research on numerous topics. Opposing camps form on these things all the time. People claim to be scientific as if it's this perfect diviner of truth when the scientific community is at odds with itself constantly. I accept Kilner's studies as valid. If something can be practised and demonstrated (anyone could develop seeing auras it's really very simple) then I say it has validity.

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    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    Quote Originally Posted by dpc
    There are scientific postulates put forward in journals every day with lots of research on numerous topics. Opposing camps form on these things all the time. People claim to be scientific as if it's this perfect diviner of truth when the scientific community is at odds with itself constantly. I accept Kilner's studies as valid. If something can be practised and demonstrated (anyone could develop seeing auras it's really very simple) then I say it has validity.
    You're confusing the outcome of scientific research with accepted scientific fact. A postulate or a conclusion drawn from a study is only the first step on a long road to shaping hard "knowledge". Opposing (scientific) camps do not "form all the time" against accepted facts, by definition.

    Kilners study may well be "fact", in that it seems possible to photograph aura with special equipment. But it is not factual that this is of any significance.

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    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    See Ars, this is what you get when you confuse spiritual matters with the physical world
    I think it's wrong impose one's belief's on anyone (although I'm not saying that Ars is doing that cause I don't no what's being referenced.) I deliberately steer away from that. To me, all of nature is so incredibly ordered in the micro and macro universe that if God ever does show up he will be one scientifically oriented dude.

    A final remark about the aura (cause it's getting boring) and it's objective nature is this: If someone (anyone) breaks their arm and it begins to heal naturally, the aura will show green where the healing process is taking place. Religious considerations completely aside.

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    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    You're confusing the outcome of scientific research with accepted scientific fact. A postulate or a conclusion drawn from a study is only the first step on a long road to shaping hard "knowledge". Opposing (scientific) camps do not "form all the time" against accepted facts, by definition. Kilners study may well be "fact", in that it seems possible to photograph aura with special equipment. But it is not factual that this is of any significance.
    I'm not confusing the two. I'm saying that opposing camps form all the time on matters that are not considered fact. Also there are very large issues that are considered fact for lengthy periods of time that get ejected due to some newly discovered principle: the difference between Newton and Einstein on Gravity for example. The Jury is still out on lots of things, which should temper are sense of knowing the facts.

  7. #7

    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    Oh, I guess this is it:




    And I have to ask you what the ~~~~ that means.

    Seriously, what are you talking about?! With all due respect, my reaction to this kind of blanket, farting statement is the same as when people say there's no point in studying music. You know, it kills the soul - music creates its own energy, and studying it doesn't give you that...or some such ~~~~.

    Just as the people who say that are invariably too lazy to study music (and usually destined to discover - often too late - that their innate talent will only carry them so far), people who say things like what you're saying have rarely studied science.

    (I haven't studied science very much, but I do find it interesting and don't just write it off.)
    Jeez I didn't know my little statement work rock your world so much!

    Hmmmm, let me explain further. Quality rather than quantity. Yes. The spirit of man that which is the animating life force in man is more quality than quantity. It's a force that can be explained qualitatively rather than measured quantitatively.

    The qualities of the spirit are quite specific. It has the power to perceive and the power to command things by decision. So it isn't a thing but a creator of things.

    This aura we're speaking of I'm not so sure that it is the spirit but rather the spirit creating energy to control a body in the physical universe.

    The reason spiritual matters and the nature of these things has eluded man for so long is that he was and still is in science looking for something material.

    If you looked up the definition of soul or spirit in a good dictionary you'll notice right away that it describes several qualities. So philosophy and inductive reason have revealed the nature and capabilities of the spirit where the physical sciences haven't a real clue.

    @ Beckers, actually it's the seperation of the spirit from the physical universe that rehabilitates the spirit.

    It's best imo to think of the spirit as a complete static from which all motion flows. The physical universe is complete motion where nothing is static. Are you getting the seperation? It's a duality between the spirit and the physical universe. The spirit being non material and therefore motionless and timeless and the physical universe being the field of activity controlled by thought or the spirit.

    How does one control his life? He reasons and then puts those thoughts into action. That reaoning power is a byproduct of the ability of the spirit to create thoughts and ideas and to put those thoughts and ideas into action through the use of a body.

    So the energy of life animates a body and is created by the power of thought inherent in the spirit. Dead bodies don't think, don't move and can't perceive. Live body's can move, can think and can perceive. What's the difference? A live body has the addition of a life force unit called the soul, spirit, elan vital or whatever you want to call it.

    I think the best bet to make progress in this discussion is to discuss this question. This question actually solved a lot of problems in understanding the spirit. The question is:


    "how do you kill something that can't be killed?"


    Ars

  8. #8

    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    Ars took the object of Runa's example and used it to make a point about the nature of illness, saying (I think) that whilst science exposes the physical side of illness, its treatment can only help at that level, whereas the cause of the problem may be "spiritual", in which case the science based treatment is helping only the symptoms, not the cause.

    Given that the idea of "spiritual" is a little fuzzy, I think there is a lot of truth in this. Even a simple infection could be merely a symptom of a deeper problem, psychological, emotional, spiritual -take your pick, which can (it is known) affect the immune system, which predisposes to infection.
    Sure there's a mind-body connection, even in simple ways like being over-tired seems to make your body less able to ward off infections that normally wouldn't affect it (since the bugs are always around). What bothers me is the irrational corollary: I brought this on myself. That's usually ridiculous, and I find it very difficult to deal with when certain wives I know get like that.

    In other words, just because you get a headache doesn't mean you have a deep-rooted problem with your soul. That absurdity only leads to irrational self-loathing.

    Ars, it's the way you just say "science is going the wrong way" that I find frustrating. The other part about the spirit, well, I take and leave various parts of that.

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    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    I think it's well established that the will to live is a vital ingredient to someone who's on the brink of death and may or may not recover. We've all heard about someone fighting for their life. So it seems that there is a correlation between physical and psychological/emotional/spiritual workings of the body. The larger question is what is the ultimate potential of these workings? I think the physical limitations of the body are well known. But the mental may still have far greater potential. The spiritual is perhaps the most untapped (certainly least understood or even accepted) and may have the most potential for all we know.

  10. #10

    Re: Intelligence design (part3)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    In other words, just because you get a headache doesn't mean you have a deep-rooted problem with your soul. That absurdity only leads to irrational self-loathing.
    Yes it does. I actually think that there is nothing that can happen to the soul. It's nonmaterial and can't be hurt, but through various mental circuits the soul can put a hurting on the body unknowingly.

    I think it might help to share some of my background.

    I started as a scientist early on in junior high. I use to take my dad's books who at the time was attending a junior college and read through the text almost everday. I did that rather than home work. I suffered a lot of losses in science in trying to undstand life. My senior year I finally realized that science could never really know the answers to life. My thinking at the time went something like this. " The effort of science at this time was to turn back the clock to the moment of the big bang in an effort to understand the life and the creation of the universe, but since any quantity can be divided an infinite number of times the actual begining of the universe can never be reached as long as you're dealing within in the confineds of matter, energy, space and time which is the scope and extent of science at that time. And, since it can never be ruled out that something created this, that creator will never be known by scientific means and therefore that which makes up life in the universe i suspect will never be fully understood by science either." That and the fact that Science hasn't really discovered anything new in 30 years made me very impatient. I didn't want to wait around for the centuries it will take earth science to actually evolve a workable answer to life.

    Then I noticed in college that people like Stephen Hawkings and a few others where trying to do just that. Trying to find the creation of the universe by turning back time to the big bang and by splitting atoms. I felt like screaming. You can't find God in a quark. It never ever came across his mind that you can always turn back time and you can always split something into something else so therefore you'll never reach the big bang. So he got frustrated as a lot of what he was trying to do, litterally find God through the big bang, came of no avail.

    What I realized then is that your average scientist is no smarter or more holy that your average Joe. As a matter of fact your average joe has more workable answers to life than your average scientist due to the over whelming number of people working in that field with ruined lives. I also realized that putting faith in these guys as the sole arbitors of knowledge was just stupid. That I could know just as much or more than these guys. After that I stopped studying science. I'll pick up a book now and again and read some bogus unproven theory about strings or some wierd theory about genes but I realized that science is a dying field. No real discoveries and any real discoveries are quickly discounted and buried by self serving government agencies and greedy grant seeking scientist.

    So then I started to wonder what the heck was going on with these scientist? Then I realized that they just have a complete inability to perceive or admitt to something non-material in nature.

    That thought lead me out of science and into religion. Back out of religion and into philosophy where I found the basis of religion, Buddha, and the basis of Science, Frances Bacon, who both considered themselves thinkers above all else. My study of philosophy ended when I found a body of knowledge that answered the question, "what is man?" with the only verification being that the answers work on life.

    Ars

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