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Topic: Intelligence design (part2)?

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  1. #1
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    Re: Intelligence design ?

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    I think he meant you're wrong about evolution being considered as a true or proven theory (as the definition you quoted suggests) amongst the entire scientific community. Therefore it may not hold league with the theory of gravity in that respect. But maybe I'm wrong and Wes can further explain. Very informative stuff being put forward.

  2. #2
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    Re: Intelligence design ?

    Quote Originally Posted by robh
    I think the christian loyalist would have a hard time reconciling the bible passage calling them to obey those in authority with joining a rebellion.
    Yes and even the rebels themselves would have felt pangs about this but they were also dealing with oppression which is another principle. Hence a paradox (or contradiction to the lessor understanding.)

    Quote Originally Posted by robh
    I would say that establishing a free nation with religious freedom was more a by-product of the christian ethic. The means by which the US was established as a free nation would, in my opinion, be un-christian. Its independence was born in violence - based on that, I can't see how it can be considered to be founded on Christianity.Rob
    The laws of the newly formed land were based on Judeo/Christian (Western) ethics. Violence is an unfortunate occurance but history is full of it. You couldn't be a Christian (or any other faith) fully without the liberty to practise so it had to be fought for.

  3. #3

    Re: Intelligence design ?

    I would imagine there's a few people in the New Orleans area and elsewhere that may identify with some of the more plaintive Psalms. Many a great composer seemed not to get queasy while setting them to such amazing music.

    The newspaper makes me far more ill.
    It's only recently that *any* art wasn't religious. That's not what I'm talking about; simplicity isn't shallow.

    What I'm talking about is the kitchy parody of religion you see on TV and hear on [holding nose] talk radio. That's where the right wing fundamentalists spread their propaganda. Blech.

  4. #4
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    Re: Intelligence design ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    It's only recently that *any* art wasn't religious. That's not what I'm talking about; simplicity isn't shallow.
    Nonetheless there is a trend to impose our beliefs or non-beliefs on these great artists with the passage of time and change of culture. Wholly unfair and a real cheap shot to artists that freely expressed their spirituality apart from their work (as Beethoven and Bach did.) Can you imagine meeting these fellows and saying I think your work is so deep and profound - of course your professions and inspirations are pure bull~~~~.

    Granted many great artists simply worked with the artistic language of the day (religious) and couldn't have been less interested and even atheistic - very true. It would be just as wrong to infer they were deeply religious by their work. I take them at their word and the historical record in either case.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    What I'm talking about is the kitchy parody of religion you see on TV and hear on [holding nose] talk radio. That's where the right wing fundamentalists spread their propaganda. Blech.
    I concur. Nauseating.

  5. #5
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    Re: Intelligence design ?

    Quote Originally Posted by robh
    The means by which the US was established as a free nation would, in my opinion, be un-christian. Its independence was born in violence - based on that, I can't see how it can be considered to be founded on Christianity.

    Rob
    So, Rob, what is your opinion of how the Israelites established their nation, massacering whole populations and all, under the tutelage of God, as it sais in the Bible? (I've got a followup question ready)

  6. #6

    Re: Intelligence design ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    So, Rob, what is your opinion of how the Israelites established their nation, massacering whole populations and all, under the tutelage of God, as it sais in the Bible? (I've got a followup question ready)
    A very good and difficult question to answer. I don't think I can do it justice, especially since I'm supposed to be at work, working.

    There's a passage in the Bible referring to the Canaanites, I think in the story of Abraham, about their sin was not yet complete, or something like that. God does bring judgement on sin, eventually. Perhaps during the exodus of Israel, Canaan was "complete". Read about how degenerate the Canaanites behaved (human sacrifice for example) and maybe you'd understand why judgement was necessary. Based on the character of God revealed in the Bible, I believe it grieves Him terribly to pass judgement like that. He would much rather have them "join the family".

    Rob

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    Re: Intelligence design ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    So, Rob, what is your opinion of how the Israelites established their nation, massacering whole populations and all, under the tutelage of God, as it sais in the Bible? (I've got a followup question ready)
    We're all living on land as a result of massacering peoples so we have to ask ourselves the same question. Since we can't seem to agree whether there is an intelligent creator or not we should probably take responsebility for it. I wonder how many people would be willing to give the land back as the Israelites are today.

  8. #8
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    Re: Intelligence design ?

    Quote Originally Posted by robh
    Read about how degenerate the Canaanites behaved (human sacrifice for example) and maybe you'd understand why judgement was necessary. Based on the character of God revealed in the Bible, I believe it grieves Him terribly to pass judgement like that. He would much rather have them "join the family".
    Rob
    All of them? Did each individual Canaanite person in Jericho, Hazor etc. sacrifice humans? The "Canaanites" were a diverse people with different ethnic groups and tribes in different cities, Philistines, Amonites, Moabites, other Semites and Indo-European people, with different cultures. Were they all equally guilty? God seems to have thought people needed this punishment only where the Israelite's promised land was. (In fact the first to bite the dust, weren't Canaanites at all, as Joshua started his conquest East of the Jordan).

    Anyway, so, the punishment for decadence and human sacrifice is genocide? Ethnic cleansing? Is human sacrifice worse than murder out of greed? worse than mass murder for conquest?

    Doesn't this stuff bother you? Don't you think it's actually easily explained if you loosen the connection between the Divine and the words in the Bible?

  9. #9

    Re: Intelligence design ?

    dpc, no question. We're living in a different era.

  10. #10

    Re: Intelligence design ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    All of them? Did each individual Canaanite person in Jericho, Hazor etc. sacrifice humans? The "Canaanites" were a diverse people with different ethnic groups and tribes in different cities, Philistines, Amonites, Moabites, other Semites and Indo-European people, with different cultures. Were they all equally guilty? God seems to have thought people needed this punishment only where the Israelite's promised land was. (In fact the first to bite the dust, weren't Canaanites at all, as Joshua started his conquest East of the Jordan).
    Rahab and all her family was spared.

    Anyway, so, the punishment for decadence and human sacrifice is genocide? Ethnic cleansing? Is human sacrifice worse than murder out of greed? worse than mass murder for conquest?
    All sin is punishable by death, according to the Bible, It's God's love and mercy that he stays his hand at all.

    Doesn't this stuff bother you?
    Of course it bothers me. It's difficult for anyone to read about (at first) a loving, mercful God amidst all the dramatic acts of judgement. But it's there: Justice and mercy together.
    Don't you think it's actually easily explained if you loosen the connection between the Divine and the words in the Bible?
    How does one loosen the connection between the words in the Bible and the Divine, when one believes the words to be Divinely inspired?

    Rob

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