• Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Topic: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Read the 'dumb question' thread with interest, and have been trying to apply it to get the natural-seeming combination of CC#7 as overall volume level with CC#11 changing the volume between 0 and the max overall volume level as set by CC#7.

    From the left panel of k2, the 'auto' section, trying to drag the CC#11 over to the main volume slider in the instrument header results in a conflict, I think, where both cc#7 and CC#11 adjust the volume without regard for each other. Last controller of either sort sets the volume level.

    From the left panel of K2, the 'auto' section, dragging the CC#11 over to the volume knob in the Amplifier section (seen when instrument edit, the wrench, is selected) works. This controls the volume for ONE OR MORE groups within the instrument; with Edit all Groups selected, it controls the volume for all groups within the overall volume level set by CC# in the instrument header. This works, but not sure it gives the right sounding expression to me, when used in combination with a drawn-in CC#11 curve in my sequencer. Using an instrument that started out with 0.0 in the group edit volume knob, the CC#11 0-127 changes that knob value from -infinity to +12db, and CC#11=80 sets it back to 0.

    Without using the left panel of K2, but still in the Amplifier section, one can select 'add modulator', choose 'external sources' and 'midi cc', then set controller #11. Leaving the initial value as 0, and setting the slider fully right, gives an expression curve that's audible, but nothing visible changes.

    Which way is better? And, let's say I ALWAYS want CC#11 to work the same way for all instruments --- how to set that up? Do I have to edit and save every instrument? Or each new multi has to get this configured?

  2. #2

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Hi gugliel,

    You've actualy figured a lot of this out by yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by gugliel
    Read the 'dumb question' thread with interest, and have been trying to apply it to get the natural-seeming combination of CC#7 as overall volume level with CC#11 changing the volume between 0 and the max overall volume level as set by CC#7.

    From the left panel of k2, the 'auto' section, trying to drag the CC#11 over to the main volume slider in the instrument header results in a conflict, I think, where both cc#7 and CC#11 adjust the volume without regard for each other. Last controller of either sort sets the volume level.
    If you've set the Volume up in the options menu correctly then you don't want to assign any thing else to it. It (cc7) will be an adjustment you can use in your midi programs that will help controling the overall final adjustment of each instrument.

    Quote Originally Posted by gugliel
    From the left panel of K2, the 'auto' section, dragging the CC#11 over to the volume knob in the Amplifier section (seen when instrument edit, the wrench, is selected) works. This controls the volume for ONE OR MORE groups within the instrument; with Edit all Groups selected, it controls the volume for all groups within the overall volume level set by CC# in the instrument header. This works, but not sure it gives the right sounding expression to me, when used in combination with a drawn-in CC#11 curve in my sequencer. Using an instrument that started out with 0.0 in the group edit volume knob, the CC#11 0-127 changes that knob value from -infinity to +12db, and CC#11=80 sets it back to 0.
    If you do it this way gugliel, you need to make sure all groups are allready set up with an equal amplifier volume by clicking on each group and see what the amplifier volume reading is. If they are not the same then I'd leave this alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by gugliel
    Without using the left panel of K2, but still in the Amplifier section, one can select 'add modulator', choose 'external sources' and 'midi cc', then set controller #11. Leaving the initial value as 0, and setting the slider fully right, gives an expression curve that's audible, but nothing visible changes.
    I know what you mean by not being able to see anything move but I think this is the best place to apply cc11, basicaly set up just as your saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by gugliel
    Which way is better? And, let's say I ALWAYS want CC#11 to work the same way for all instruments --- how to set that up? Do I have to edit and save every instrument? Or each new multi has to get this configured?
    The answere to this I think depends on which library your useing. Some libraries like EWQL-Gold are already set up with cc11 volume control. I personaly don't know how you can set up a "template" for this and don't think it can be done to be applied across the board or any kind of a global setting.

    T. S.

  3. #3

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Thanks ts!

    Took a look at how EWQLSO gold is configured, and you're right, CC#11 is set as a modulator in the amplifier section. But reminiscent of BigBob's equations, seems to me they have it set as a double negative: the slider is all the way to the left, saying reverse the curve, then the little curve window button (don't know what the 'curve window' is really called...) is active, and a reversed curve is set for the curve. Would this be exactly the same as just setting the slider all the way to the right, and turning off the active curve?

  4. #4

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Hi gugliel,

    I don't know the answere to this at all. Big Bob pursued this quite vigarously and I'm not sure if he came up with any definate final conclusions. The only place I've found this is with Gold and since it works I guess I'll just leave it alone. However, it would be nice to know.

    I have added this modulation to other instruments and it seems to work very well. I think the most important thing to understand here is that the Modulation cc11 works in conjuntion with both the Main volume (cc7) as well as the Amplifier volume. In other words, if you set the Main vol (cc7) at a (-6db), then cc11 still gives you from 0 to 127 but at 127 it will only reach a (-6db) level. This of course makes it a "finer" adjustment. At least thats my understanding and you may have known this already. Also I'm by no means an expert.

    T. S.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Big Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Apple Valley, California
    Posts
    323

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Hi Gugliel,

    Sorry for the delay, but, as I stated elsewhere on this forum, I am without a computer for a while so I'm not able to touch bases too often.

    From the left panel of k2, the 'auto' section, trying to drag the CC#11 over to the main volume slider in the instrument header results in a conflict, I think, where both cc#7 and CC#11 adjust the volume without regard for each other. Last controller of either sort sets the volume level.

    From the left panel of K2, the 'auto' section, dragging the CC#11 over to the volume knob in the Amplifier section (seen when instrument edit, the wrench, is selected) works. This controls the volume for ONE OR MORE groups within the instrument; with Edit all Groups selected, it controls the volume for all groups within the overall volume level set by CC# in the instrument header.
    I think if you read carefully what I posted on this subject, you'll see that I basically already said what you just restated above.

    Took a look at how EWQLSO gold is configured, and you're right, CC#11 is set as a modulator in the amplifier section. But reminiscent of BigBob's equations, seems to me they have it set as a double negative: the slider is all the way to the left, saying reverse the curve, then the little curve window button (don't know what the 'curve window' is really called...) is active, and a reversed curve is set for the curve. Would this be exactly the same as just setting the slider all the way to the right, and turning off the active curve?
    The 'curve window' is named 'Rescale' by NI. Your right about the double negative, apparently some artifact of the the import translator or a programmer who doesn't fully understand how all the controls interact (or does and is just trying to confuse someone who doesn't ).

    This works, but not sure it gives the right sounding expression to me, when used in combination with a drawn-in CC#11 curve in my sequencer. Using an instrument that started out with 0.0 in the group edit volume knob, the CC#11 0-127 changes that knob value from -infinity to +12db, and CC#11=80 sets it back to 0.
    Here is the place to use the 'Rescale' function. Only instead of a linear ramp, draw a curve that provides the audio taper you're looking for. Then, save it as a preset so you can recall it for other instruments you may want to edit. I'll post to this thread again after I get my computer back up and if I can contribute anymore to this, let me know. I did pretty thoroughly document how all these controllers work and besides the equations I have some other graphic aids. But, right now, I'm kind of dead in the water.
    Big Bob (aka Wonderful Bob)

  6. #6
    Senior Member Big Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Apple Valley, California
    Posts
    323

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    I'm back!
    Big Bob (aka Wonderful Bob)

  7. #7

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Hi Big Bob,

    Realy glad to see you back. I've been busy getting ready to go to a family reunion for the weekend.

    I finaly found a way to deal with Rel tails in a sanely way. I simply make a keyswitch out of the first set of groups, copy and paste them makeing a second set of groups and put them on a different keyswitch. I then change the cc11 on the second group to cc12 so I now have two Volume controls for each Instrument and Midi track.

    He, he, THE SUCKING SOUND IS GONE.

    It also gives you the advantage of haveing more than one note lines in a midi track and still have separate Volume contols for the separate notes. This saves from adding extra Midi Channels not to mention takeing up extra Instrument slots just for a few extra notes.

    T. S.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Big Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Apple Valley, California
    Posts
    323

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Hi Tod ol' buddy,

    I'm glad to be back. Now, if only I can play catch up fast enough, maybe I can start to make some forward motion again.

    Since I don't have any of the orchestral libraries that you guys are always talking about, I'm not really familiar with the problem that you're trying to solve. But, I am glad that you found a fix that you're happy with. Someday when I get some breathing space, you can explain to me in more detail just what the 'release' problem is all about.

    God bless,

    Bob

    PS I recently found a bug in the harmonizer script, so I posted a new version 1.02 on NI's site if you're interested in getting it.
    Big Bob (aka Wonderful Bob)

  9. #9

    Re: more on CC#11 -- big bob? ts?

    Quote Originally Posted by T. S.
    I finaly found a way to deal with Rel tails in a sanely way. I simply make a keyswitch out of the first set of groups, copy and paste them makeing a second set of groups and put them on a different keyswitch. I then change the cc11 on the second group to cc12 so I now have two Volume controls for each Instrument and Midi track.

    He, he, THE SUCKING SOUND IS GONE.
    T. S.
    An elegant solution T.S. Nice.

    D
    S
    Damon Sink
    G5 Dual 2 GHz, P4 3.8GHz, Logic Pro 7, Digital Performer, EWQLSO Platinum Pro XP, VSL, Kontakt2, Finale

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •