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Topic: GPO Studio + Cakewalk

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  1. #1

    GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Hi

    I am new to GPO, and obviously new to the forums, so please forgive me if I ask any questions that seem to have somewhat obvious answers.

    Today I installed my GPO, and have been playing around with it using the bundled Cubasis and Overture SE, but decided that they were both a bit too complicated for today's rather impatient mood, and moved on to attempting to use GPO with Cakewalk Music Creator 2003, with which I have a bit of familiarity.

    I noticed, however, that when I am constructing a piece (I use the notation editor), and go to play it back, the mod wheel on the kontakt player in GPO studio resets itself to the lowest level every time I hit stop, or play to the end of whatever piece I am working on. Strangely (to my mind, at least), the piano track volume is not affected by this, whereas the cello track volume is, even though the modwheel will turn down on both.

    I tend to compose one or two notes at a time, slowly arranging them little by little until I get the sound I'm looking for, and I've got to say that it's awfully annoying to have to open up the GPO studio, select the kontakt player, and turn up the modwheel every single time I change something and then want to hear it again.

    Is there some way I can prevent it from doing this?

    Until a few minutes ago, I did not know how to create a midi file in Cubasis, so I do not know if the same behavior is present there. Maybe I should just grit my teeth and learn Cubasis?

    Thank you for any help you can give.

  2. #2
    Senior Member rwayland's Avatar
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    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Quote Originally Posted by hepcatzeppo
    Hi

    I am new to GPO, and obviously new to the forums, so please forgive me if I ask any questions that seem to have somewhat obvious answers.

    Today I installed my GPO, and have been playing around with it using the bundled Cubasis and Overture SE, but decided that they were both a bit too complicated for today's rather impatient mood, and moved on to attempting to use GPO with Cakewalk Music Creator 2003, with which I have a bit of familiarity.

    I noticed, however, that when I am constructing a piece (I use the notation editor), and go to play it back, the mod wheel on the kontakt player in GPO studio resets itself to the lowest level every time I hit stop, or play to the end of whatever piece I am working on. Strangely (to my mind, at least), the piano track volume is not affected by this, whereas the cello track volume is, even though the modwheel will turn down on both.

    I tend to compose one or two notes at a time, slowly arranging them little by little until I get the sound I'm looking for, and I've got to say that it's awfully annoying to have to open up the GPO studio, select the kontakt player, and turn up the modwheel every single time I change something and then want to hear it again.

    Is there some way I can prevent it from doing this?

    Until a few minutes ago, I did not know how to create a midi file in Cubasis, so I do not know if the same behavior is present there. Maybe I should just grit my teeth and learn Cubasis?

    Thank you for any help you can give.


    Other Cakewalk products have a feature in options that you can select, called something like reset controllers after stop. If you have that option, that ought to solve the problem. Much easier to do this than to learn Cubasis!!

    Richard

  3. #3

    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Hcz,
    I use SONAR but I imagine it shares certain features/behaviors with MC.
    1. There may be an option that determines whether controllers are zeroed on stop. Look in the options area. In SONAR it's "Options | Project | Midi Out" "Zero Controllers When Play Stops". Turn this off.
    2. In the Piano Roll or the events list, whichever you're comfortable with, you need to add a CC#1 event of some middling value, say 64, at the beginning of each track. I'll bet MC does intelligent controller lookback like SONAR and other sequencers.

    The piano is velocity sensitive and does not respond to CC#1's, whereas the cello (and most GPO instruments) does. Look in the pamphlet that comes with GPO. Find the instrument definitions. In the right-hand column, "MW" means that the instrument responds to the mod wheel and you must do as above.

    You should also plan on using the mod wheel extensively to control the expression on the MW instruments, not the volume control.
    Bill

  4. #4

    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Quote Originally Posted by billp
    Hcz,
    I use SONAR but I imagine it shares certain features/behaviors with MC.
    1. There may be an option that determines whether controllers are zeroed on stop. Look in the options area. In SONAR it's "Options | Project | Midi Out" "Zero Controllers When Play Stops". Turn this off.
    2. In the Piano Roll or the events list, whichever you're comfortable with, you need to add a CC#1 event of some middling value, say 64, at the beginning of each track. I'll bet MC does intelligent controller lookback like SONAR and other sequencers.

    The piano is velocity sensitive and does not respond to CC#1's, whereas the cello (and most GPO instruments) does. Look in the pamphlet that comes with GPO. Find the instrument definitions. In the right-hand column, "MW" means that the instrument responds to the mod wheel and you must do as above.

    You should also plan on using the mod wheel extensively to control the expression on the MW instruments, not the volume control.

    I use a workaround for it: I insert a small mod wheel (CC:1) event at the beginning of the midi track, set a value of around 75 - 80. After doing that the mod wheel will be controlled by that value (which is the first and also the last one in the track) so it will not get reset to 0 at any time. Easy Fix.

  5. #5

    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Quote Originally Posted by boten
    so it will not get reset to 0 at any time. Easy Fix.
    Not exactly true, at least in SONAR. If you do not clear the "Zero Controllers When Play Stops", the controllers are zeroed when the transport stops. If you then click on a note in Piano Roll or Staff View, or try to use the Scrub Tool, the notes will not sound.

    The single event at the beginning of the track causes the mod wheel to move to that value only when the transport is moving.

    You need to do both things as I described, at least in SONAR 4. It is possible that MC2003 behaves slightly differently. MC2 will most likely behave like S4.
    Bill

  6. #6
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    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Bill, since you are a Sonar user, is there anyway to assign the modwheel (cc#1) to the volume control in a midi track?

    My problem is that after I record several midi tracks and want to mix down, the only way I know to control volume is to open the Kontact Player and use the individual instrument volume controls in the player. This is not very good and I need to be able to play things back and use the mixer view and mix there before bouncing to tracks to get my stereo audio track.

    Any help very much appreciated,
    Tom

  7. #7

    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Welcome to the NS cult, Hepcatzeppo!

    I'm a MC 2002 user and I imagine MC 2003 is very similiar. First of all, I would HIGHLY recomend that you use the GPO DXi for playback. That way you can export audio files of your work much easilier. In case you don't know how, you first create an audio track, then you right click on the FX pane and under DX instruments, GPO should be there and you can point your MIDI tracks to it. You can get a total of eight instances of GPO that way. And you won't have that slight delay of when cakewalk plays the note and you hear it when using studio, which means it would be easier to use something like the included (with cakewalk) VSC DXi, which is very nice.

    Anyway, back to your question.
    Yes, turning off the 'zero controlers after playback' will really help, but the mod wheel really shouldn't be a 'set and forget' kind of thing. You would really need it for dynamic contrast and control. Especially in the brass, where if the mod wheel is all the way up it sounds very bright. Just in case you don't know how to enter mod wheel data, you do it in the piano roll view. At the bottom there should be a controler pane, and if not I'm sure there's a button somewhere that would make it visible. Along the top (at least in MC 2002) there is a controler pane options bar. There you can select the CC number (mod wheel is CC 1) and you can draw in mod data. I find the piano roll view much easier to work in than the staff view, because you can more easially add in little 'misakes' like uneven start/release times on the notes and stuff like that.


    I hope this was of some help!

    -Chris

  8. #8

    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Quote Originally Posted by billp
    Not exactly true, at least in SONAR. If you do not clear the "Zero Controllers When Play Stops", the controllers are zeroed when the transport stops. If you then click on a note in Piano Roll or Staff View, or try to use the Scrub Tool, the notes will not sound.

    The single event at the beginning of the track causes the mod wheel to move to that value only when the transport is moving.

    You need to do both things as I described, at least in SONAR 4. It is possible that MC2003 behaves slightly differently. MC2 will most likely behave like S4.

    I'm not sure . I'm a SONAR user and never got into a problem like that if I first do what I just described. The mod wheel stays constant at the same value after stop and starting from any place in the track.

  9. #9

    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatII
    Bill, since you are a Sonar user, is there anyway to assign the modwheel (cc#1) to the volume control in a midi track?

    My problem is that after I record several midi tracks and want to mix down, the only way I know to control volume is to open the Kontact Player and use the individual instrument volume controls in the player. This is not very good and I need to be able to play things back and use the mixer view and mix there before bouncing to tracks to get my stereo audio track.

    Any help very much appreciated,
    Tom
    Hi Tom,
    WARNING: Opinion follows...

    In general, I think all midi tracks should be "pre-mixed". It used to be that, even with automated consoles, continual adjustments to volumes were required during the mixdown process and the automated consoles were a real benefit. Things are a bit different now, especially with midi and software sequencers:

    Before you get to the final mixdown stage, you should have applied the mod wheel/CC#1, or volume/CC#7 (to those tracks controlled by volume), and/or proper note velocities thoughout each midi track to establish the proper levels and dynamics for each track. Each track should have natural sounding and consistent dynamics and levels from beginning to end before mixdown.

    This is especially true with GPO, since the CC#1 controls not only level, but timbre as well. You cannot correct this aspect in GPO by adjusting the volume later.

    At mixdown, you should not have to ride the volume faders on these midi tracks. You might need to do a few initial tweaks to correct the overall volumes of the tracks relative to one another, but that's about it. Mixdown automation of the synth's audio track(s) is not usually necessary for midi-based tracks. Any overall volume corrections can be applied on the "DXi" audio tracks, rather than on the midi tracks. These corrections are set-and-forget.

    Even live recorded audio tracks, whose volumes might be irregular, can be corrected with volume envelopes prior to mixdown.

    Perhaps others have had a different experience.

    I have not addressed the topic of whether or not to turn on the option in the GPO player which causes the player to respond to vol/pan from the sequencer. This is a separate topic.

    I started writing this response at 6:30 this morning and have been interrupted several times. Maybe someone has given you a clearer answer in the mean time...

    I know I didn't answer your original question, but maybe the above will point you in a different direction.
    Bill

  10. #10

    Re: GPO Studio + Cakewalk = Trouble?

    Thank you everyone for your help.

    The problem seems to be taken care of, and I will be sure to take your advice to heart.
    www.VHEMT.org

    Do your part for world peace!

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