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Topic: "Trombe in B"

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  1. #1

    "Trombe in B"

    OK - I'm having an old geezer moment.....

    I'm looking at the score for Mussorgsky's Night On A Bald/Bare Mountain.

    The trumpet part is marked as "Trombe in B", but on the first page of the score there is no key signature (piece is in one flat concert) and then at measure 9 without any other key change, the trumpet part is marked with one flat.

    The (F) horn also starts with no key signature and changes to one flat at the same point as the trumpet.

    However, the Bb Clarinet stays in one sharp throughout (as I would expect it to).

    Which particular nugget of common musical sense am I missing here to make me not understand the above?
    Richard N.

    Finale 2003 to 2007 ~ Garritan GPO, JABB & Strad ~ Sonar 6PE ~ Kontakt 2 ~ WinXP Home SP2

    Athlon XP 2200 ~ 1.5 Gb RAM ~ M-Audio Sound Card ~ M-Audio 88ES MIDI keyboard ~ Evolution MK-461C

    Bach Strad LT16MG, LT36G, 42B + B&H Sovereign Studio Tenor Trombones ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet ~ Yamaha TR4335G Trumpet ~ B&H Euphonium

  2. #2

    Re: "Trombe in B"

    Many times horn and trumpet parts are left without key signatures and have lots of accidentals. But that changing to one flat is bizzare. Does the Bb/F transposition make sence with the rest of the orchestra? If the notes sound like they fit in with the rest of the chord, then I would leave it and assume that the composer and/or publisher didn't get a good night's sleep.


    -Chris

  3. #3

    Re: "Trombe in B"

    Definitely sounds like a typo in the score to me. Blame the publisher.
    - Jamie Kowalski

    All Hands Music - Kowalski on the web
    The Ear Is Always Correct - Writings on composition

  4. #4

    Re: "Trombe in B"

    Quote Originally Posted by Skysaw
    Definitely sounds like a typo in the score to me. Blame the publisher.
    Once I got a trebble clef key signature in my bass clef music. I was staring at it and asking myself, "What do I do with Db, Gb, and Cb?"

    -Chris

  5. #5

    Cool Re: "Trombe in B"

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard N.
    OK - I'm having an old geezer moment.....

    I'm looking at the score for Mussorgsky's Night On A Bald/Bare Mountain.

    The trumpet part is marked as "Trombe in B", but on the first page of the score there is no key signature (piece is in one flat concert) and then at measure 9 without any other key change, the trumpet part is marked with one flat.

    The (F) horn also starts with no key signature and changes to one flat at the same point as the trumpet.

    However, the Bb Clarinet stays in one sharp throughout (as I would expect it to).

    Which particular nugget of common musical sense am I missing here to make me not understand the above?
    Can you please let us have a pdf of the page?

    I've some doubt about the B:

    The Italian word Trombe is not well linking to a B in the English sense:
    I suppose it's the German convention of B = Bb and H=B, also because I've never heard of Trumpet in B (D,C, Bb and A are the usual fundamental of trumpets)

    Then it's Trumpet in Bb probably. But now you will expect one sharp as in The Clarinet.

    The answers are two: engraving error, or natural sounds writing, sometime used to score brass instruments. The notes in the page are the solution of the enigma: please share it with us, and we will solve it together!

  6. #6

    Re: "Trombe in B"

    Thanks for the input guys.

    Fabio - here is a pdf of the first three pages.

    http://www.stradjazz.co.uk/BaldMount..._pages_123.pdf

    I would also appreciate clarification of "Cassa" - what sort of drum should this be?
    Richard N.

    Finale 2003 to 2007 ~ Garritan GPO, JABB & Strad ~ Sonar 6PE ~ Kontakt 2 ~ WinXP Home SP2

    Athlon XP 2200 ~ 1.5 Gb RAM ~ M-Audio Sound Card ~ M-Audio 88ES MIDI keyboard ~ Evolution MK-461C

    Bach Strad LT16MG, LT36G, 42B + B&H Sovereign Studio Tenor Trombones ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet ~ Yamaha TR4335G Trumpet ~ B&H Euphonium

  7. #7

    Smile Re: "Trombe in B"

    Cassa, or GranCassa is the Italian for orchestral bass drum.

  8. #8

    Cool Re: "Trombe in B"

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard N.
    Thanks for the input guys.

    Fabio - here is a pdf of the first three pages.

    http://www.stradjazz.co.uk/BaldMount..._pages_123.pdf

    I would also appreciate clarification of "Cassa" - what sort of drum should this be?
    VERY NICE SCORE! All instruments names are italian, and the note name are the germans (probably used in Russia too).

    Unfortunately the pause of Trumpets let us in the mistery! But I think that the change of key is just preparing something following: for instance the Bb added to Horns doesn't change anything because Horns are playng a A pedal (the same with or without one flat). May be the following phrase is in a relative tonality, and the key helps the trumpet player?

    The main theme entry will in few bars play strange notes (a modal writing of the composer, playing in a personal style chromatic steps of the minor key), then also natural sounds writing for trumpet is possible. You create a curiosity...I will investigate!

  9. #9

    Re: "Trombe in B"

    Yes, now I've done some work on the score, it appears that the Horns and Trumpets are written as transposing intruments but without key signatures - except where the engraver has slipped a random key signature at the start of one or two pages.

    Just for my own pleasure/recreation/learning, I am re-scoring this piece in Finale - to later create a mock-up with GPO.

    Whilst my biography includes being Principal Trombone with a prominent British orchestra, that was some time and a different genre ago, so hopefully I'll be able to pick a few brains as and when more questions arise.

    Thanks.
    Richard N.

    Finale 2003 to 2007 ~ Garritan GPO, JABB & Strad ~ Sonar 6PE ~ Kontakt 2 ~ WinXP Home SP2

    Athlon XP 2200 ~ 1.5 Gb RAM ~ M-Audio Sound Card ~ M-Audio 88ES MIDI keyboard ~ Evolution MK-461C

    Bach Strad LT16MG, LT36G, 42B + B&H Sovereign Studio Tenor Trombones ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet ~ Yamaha TR4335G Trumpet ~ B&H Euphonium

  10. #10

    Re: "Trombe in B"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio
    Unfortunately the pause of Trumpets let us in the mistery!
    Sorry Fabio, I have now posted another pdf which actually includes some notes in the trumpet parts.

    http://www.stradjazz.co.uk/BaldMount...pages_1to7.pdf
    Richard N.

    Finale 2003 to 2007 ~ Garritan GPO, JABB & Strad ~ Sonar 6PE ~ Kontakt 2 ~ WinXP Home SP2

    Athlon XP 2200 ~ 1.5 Gb RAM ~ M-Audio Sound Card ~ M-Audio 88ES MIDI keyboard ~ Evolution MK-461C

    Bach Strad LT16MG, LT36G, 42B + B&H Sovereign Studio Tenor Trombones ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet ~ Yamaha TR4335G Trumpet ~ B&H Euphonium

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