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Topic: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

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  1. #1

    Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    First of all, I think that that Spectrasonic Stylus RMX is a great instrument.

    But there is one thing which I find disturbing in Spectrasonic's policy (and in Stylus), maybe someone can tell me how he/she has solved this dilemma.

    Namely, there are huge amount of different sophisticated ways to edit
    Stylus RMX sounds but it seems that one main feature is forgotten:
    how to create/edit different time signature rhytms. Practically all the thousands of library rhytms are in 4/4. But the world, of course, is full of different time signatures, from the conventional 3/4 waltz to the complex polyrhytmic patterns. Even "simply" rock music is full of different time signatures (just listen e.g. 5/4 "Mission Impossible") or 7/4 Pink Floyd's "Money".

    I know that the Stylus RMX user can edit the groove control MIDI file.
    But its rather difficult to edit e.g. a good (= make it match perfectly) 3/4 rhytm from some 4/4 file(s).

    How have you solved this?

    I think Stylus is great but they have forgotten this very important thing, just wonder why?

    Regards

    Harry

  2. #2

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    Good question and one that was asked a few days ago:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=31750

    Spectrasonics were not exactly helpful in their response.

  3. #3

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    I'm no expert on midi mockups but I just cut off some of the beats (for 3/4) and add some (for 7/8 or 10/8).

    7/8 can just be 4/8 plus 3/8.

    Take these broken sections and arbitrarily move them over by a 16th note. You now have a "bit" that is not 4/4 and has accents at places different than 4/4. By cutting them up and moving them around you can find 7/4 or 15/8.

    It takes a few minutes but moving these grooves around can give you some interesting rhythms.

  4. #4

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by Mus
    Good question and one that was asked a few days ago:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=31750

    Spectrasonics were not exactly helpful in their response.


    Yes, Interesting, thank you for your reply.

    Harry

  5. #5

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    Yes, RMX can handle odd time signatures. You won't find odd time signature grooves in the core library though. Remember, RMX stands for Remix :-). However, you can import your own odd-time signature grooves into RMX. Also, the Burning Grooves XPander includes some odd time-signature grooves. And, of course, you can always edit the MIDI in your host to change a 4/4 groove into an odd time signature.

    - Glenn

  6. #6
    Senior Member
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    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    It's not too dificult to chop up loops to make them work in odd time sigs.. Sometimes you can just cut out bits... for ex. take out the notes that make up the fourth 1/8th note to get 7/8 (3+4). But, I like to take the time to figure out how my odd rhythm should sound and where all of the accents should be, then chop up all of the elements so that they hit the accents right and still make cohesive phrases that work alone and with the other elements.

    Personally, I like to manipulate everything that I use in RMX in some way to make it my own - so I prefer having to create my own odd time sig. grooves.
    Dane Hawkes DiAnda
    C. I. Studios

  7. #7

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_O
    But there is one thing which I find disturbing in Spectrasonic's policy (and in Stylus), maybe someone can tell me how he/she has solved this dilemma.

    Namely, there are huge amount of different sophisticated ways to edit
    Stylus RMX sounds but it seems that one main feature is forgotten:
    how to create/edit different time signature rhytms. Practically all the thousands of library rhytms are in 4/4. But the world, of course, is full of different time signatures, from the conventional 3/4 waltz to the complex polyrhytmic patterns. Even "simply" rock music is full of different time signatures (just listen e.g. 5/4 "Mission Impossible") or 7/4 Pink Floyd's "Money".

    I know that the Stylus RMX user can edit the groove control MIDI file.
    But its rather difficult to edit e.g. a good (= make it match perfectly) 3/4 rhytm from some 4/4 file(s).

    I think Stylus is great but they have forgotten this very important thing, just wonder why?
    No need to be "disturbed" :-)

    We don't have anything against odd meters or an offical "policy" against non-4/4 grooves! LOL! :-)

    In fact a lot of the key employees at Spectrasonics do their own music in complex meters in RMX, so it's a subject we definitely "get" here.

    Currently, you can do odd time sigs two different ways:

    1. Edit the MIDI Files in your host. Not instant, but not that hard either.

    2. Play or build your own parts manually in what ever time signature that you like. (Remember that RMX is a pretty cool sound module too)

    Just because we "currently" don't offer an instant way of changing time signatures in audio loops (in fact, noone offers this) doesn't mean that we don't understand how useful odd meters are. Remember too that SAGE is just a baby in software development years. ;-)

    Check out these company demo tunes using Stylus with odd meters on our site:

    http://www.spectrasonics.net/instrum...een_Monks.html

    http://www.spectrasonics.net/instrum...Odd_Timer.html

    All the best,

    spectrum

  8. #8

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by spectrum
    No need to be "disturbed" :-)

    We don't have anything against odd meters or an offical "policy" against non-4/4 grooves! LOL! :-)

    In fact a lot of the key employees at Spectrasonics do their own music in complex meters in RMX, so it's a subject we definitely "get" here.

    Currently, you can do odd time sigs two different ways:

    1. Edit the MIDI Files in your host. Not instant, but not that hard either.

    2. Play or build your own parts manually in what ever time signature that you like. (Remember that RMX is a pretty cool sound module too)

    Just because we "currently" don't offer an instant way of changing time signatures in audio loops (in fact, noone offers this) doesn't mean that we don't understand how useful odd meters are. Remember too that SAGE is just a baby in software development years. ;-)

    Check out these company demo tunes using Stylus with odd meters on our site:

    http://www.spectrasonics.net/instrum...een_Monks.html

    http://www.spectrasonics.net/instrum...Odd_Timer.html

    All the best,

    spectrum

    Thank you for your reply. Althoug it didn't give much new information.
    I know that Spetrasonic crew is proud of their product - and you have
    all reason to be - but there's newer that much succes that a humble
    attitude would be wise strategy in the long run. Its wortwhile to listen
    the endusers opinions.
    I just pointed that there were voices already after lounching the first version Stylus who asked easier handling of the time signature param. In spite
    of that the time signature is not even mentioned in the Stylus RMX (video)manual. Of course one CAN edit the file, but, as mentioned, its not the
    easiest job to make match well in many cases in Stylus.
    And I think is wrong to call non-4/4 rhytms "odd". Its more odd that all
    grooves should be in 4/4.
    I'm shure that Spectrasonic will re-develope the Stylus. You have done
    great job, just don't neglect the musical fundaments.

    All the best,

    Harry

  9. #9

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_O
    I know that Spectrasonics crew is proud of their product - and you have all reason to be - but there's newer that much succes that a humble attitude would be wise strategy in the long run. Its wortwhile to listen the endusers opinions.
    I'm sorry that my inability to reply in great detail in a public forum about our future plans for new features, sounds or instruments is being misinterpreted as the company not listening to your ideas, or that we are too arrogant to consider the wishes of our users. That couldn't be further from the truth. The reason that we are engaged in this forum and in this discussion, is exactly because we care very much about our users ideas.

    However, as I explained in detail in my reply to the other thread, there are many things that I'm not at liberty to say in a public forum that is viewed by all of our competitors...especially when it comes to new features and products that have not been announced yet. Please take a look at my complete response on this issue to Marty here:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...t=31750&page=2

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_O
    I just pointed that there were voices already after lounching the first version Stylus who asked easier handling of the time signature param.
    Sure...but just because we haven't come up with a real-time solution yet doesn't mean that we aren't listening. This is very complex problem to solve as it relates to audio loops -which is the reason that you'll find that there is no audio loop based software program that can do automatic time-signature changing with a host. No one is doing this yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_O
    In spite of that the time signature is not even mentioned in the Stylus RMX (video)manual.
    Thank you for mentioning it and we'll put that into the next round of tutorials and the reference manual.

    Of course one CAN edit the file, but, as mentioned, its not the
    easiest job to make match well in many cases in Stylus.
    The idea of an easier way to do this in real-time would be great...no question. Until there is a solution like this, we can provide more info about non-realtime techniques you can use now to accomplish the same musical result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_O
    And I think is wrong to call non-4/4 rhytms "odd".
    The standard music terminology usage of the phrase "odd-meter" isn't a personal bias against non-4/4 time signatures. :-)

    The standard notation term for 4/4 time is widely called "common time"...which is why you see a "C" when 4/4 time is expected in many scores in place of a 4/4 symbol.

    "Odd meter" is also a standard musical terminology when referring to "non-common time (non-4/4) meters"....it's not a commentary about whether they are musically strange or unusual! After all, then Strauss waltzes would be considered weird! :-)

    Its more odd that all grooves should be in 4/4.
    I don't agree that it is strange that a module designed for "Remix" applications and genres would be primarily 4/4 based as a starting point, because remixes are overwhelmingly in 4/4 time.

    However, we certainly know that time signatures other than 4/4 are regularly used in many popular genres of music, and that RMX is expected to work in these genres as well. This is why some of the SAGE Xpanders have grooves in other time signatures, why you can use any audio loops in any time signature through REX files and why we have provided ways to change the time signature via MIDI file editing.

    I'm shure that Spectrasonic will re-develope the Stylus. You have done great job, just don't neglect the musical fundaments.
    Don't worry...there's always a lot of great things in the pipeline. Good things take time....Thanks for your suggestions and feedback.

    All the best,

    spectrum

  10. #10

    Re: Stylus RMX and different time signatures

    After all, then Strauss waltzes would be considered weird! :-)
    Yeah? What's your point? Have you listened to Strauss lately? Not on any of my local radio stations - even the classical station plays no more than one a day. So, by definition (non-standard), Strauss IS wierd...

    FWIW, as odd meters are alway some combination of 2 and 3 , perhaps there is a way to isolate the segments and recombine, like very short loops? Just a thought ("intellectual property" I release into the public domain so you may "steal" it...)
    Dasher
    -------
    It's all about the music - really. I keep telling myself that...

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