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Topic: My Concept. Developers please read.

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  1. #1

    Wink My Concept. Developers please read.

    For the last ten years I've been babbling my ideas about sampling various dynamic ranges and transitions then morphing between them, why are we only now starting to see these types of sounds appear? It seems to me that we've had enough horsepower to do this for quite some time. I once tried to connect with a programmer to pursue the idea but could never find anyone with the needed skills.

    Now that we are starting to see some morphing products, when are we going to see sequencing and notation software integrated with the samples? This would open up all kinds of time-saving coolness. Even with something as basic as alternation between sustain and staccato samples.

    For the last ten years I have not needed keyswitching because I simply confine articulations to a velocity number between 0 and 127. This way, I simply (in cakewalk) right click and change the velocity to put a staccato not or whatever in. Brightness and volume are controller by envelopes. An old version of Encore notation software let me change the velocity for each note (through a cumbersome pull-down menu lacking a shortcut!) so I could match up samples and markings.

    With purpose-designed notation/sequencing software, popping that staccato dot on a note would automatically trigger a staccato sample. Need an accent? Just pop one on your note and you're good to go.

    All the while, the dynamic markings and hairpins morph between dynamic levels. Slurs morph "in between" samples for legato etc.

    This integration would be extremely powerful.

    The concept goes further. Create specialized tall format touch screens that can display entire full orchestral scores, and use the stylus for editing DIRECTLY on the score. Various Physical buttons for common notation marks would allow instant editing. Just hold the accent button, touch the note with the stylus and the accent symbol appears. Hold the slur button, click the starting note, then the ending note, boom there it is. This is powerful stuff. It could replace paper and pencil entirely. It would be far more natural than the akward interfaces we are stuck with today.

    A purpose-made sample library isn't even neccesary. Various libraries such as EWQLSO, VSL, GPO etc could be made compatible with the software quite easily. A budget setup could use just the software, off-the-shelf PC and GPO. a top-of-the-line setup would use the full hardware including the touch screen etc and VSL, EWQLSO, SI, what have you. Everyone wins! Except for me, of course, my ideas stolen and not a dime to show for it

    I've been dreaming of this for over 10 years...
    The ultimate composing tool could be achieved RIGHT NOW with current technology. Even without dynamic level morphing, this would be awesome.

    This concept is from the perspective of a working composer and arranger. My goal is to make the connection between the technology and the composer as transparent as possible.

    Discuss!

  2. #2

    Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    Jimi,

    The last time I spoke to a developer about this (I had some of the same ideas) he told me it was really a question of would the hardware support any new standards they decided to implement.

    As much as I would like to see some of your ideas become a reality, I still think we are too small of a market to get things changed right now.

    And I would be fine with software versions also but then you have the Cakewalks and Steinbergs to worry about and they would each have different formats and standards and it would be a big mess if we abandoned general midi.
    Lincoln Flesch
    Diva, GPO, GOS, LastLibs Bass, Scarbee's SID, BFD, Post Emperor and the MAG.
    ---------------------------------------
    "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    --Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

  3. #3

    Thumbs up Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    Hi Link. Yeah, it's been like hitting a brickwall. Many years ago I had people dismissing real-time morphing as "ridiculous", "impossible" or "unnecessary" and so on. Of course it was only a matter of time before someone(s) with the resources made a bona fide product, and before long morphing will probably become the norm.

    Some people (including some developers!) still think it isn't neccesary. But these are the people who do "multimedia" type mockups with sustained tones and generic sampled orchestra cliches. As soon as you try to do "real" orchestral music, simple sample playback falls short. I generally use samples to mockup orchestral pieces and it's simply impossible without morphing to accurately represent the dynamic markings. Sure, you can throw a lowpass over an FFF sample but that approach has limits.

    As for the human interface to the sounds... here is a simple ghetto way of achieving a hint of functionality using current "standards" and notation software: LINK ARTICULATION SYMBOLS TO "PHANTOM" KEYSWITCHES! It would only take a couple hours of coding. Of course, make them customizable, to work with various libraries.

    On top of this, make EVERYTHING custom hot-key assignable. This way, I could at least construct a working hardware prototype with current notation software.

    Quote Originally Posted by Link F.
    Jimi,

    The last time I spoke to a developer about this (I had some of the same ideas) he told me it was really a question of would the hardware support any new standards they decided to implement.

    As much as I would like to see some of your ideas become a reality, I still think we are too small of a market to get things changed right now.

    And I would be fine with software versions also but then you have the Cakewalks and Steinbergs to worry about and they would each have different formats and standards and it would be a big mess if we abandoned general midi.

  4. #4

    Talking Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    BTW, the software and hardware I have in mind runs on a standard PC, so updating wouldn't be a problem. A set of patches would be available for various libraries so you could load em up, start the software and go. The need for custom notation software arises because of the stylus interface. I have 3 error-free data input methods designed. One of them works as follows:

    an open note, a black note, accidental keys and a beam key. Holding the note key then touching the staff with the stylus inputs a note. Hold the beam key and literally draw the beams. If you need a double beam etc, just draw the beam again as in real life. For flags, just tap the stem, as many times as requires. Hold the note + the accidental to enter a note with an accidental, or, click the notes in first, then hold the accidental and tap the note with the stylus.

    There could alternatively be a full set of note type keys, just hold the key and touch the staff.

    It would also be possible to use a writing recognition algorithm, although it may not be as foolproof as the above methods, it could work for many tasks.

    I have detailed diagrams of the device, with button access planned ergonomically.

    I have long wanted to construct a prototype but I just don't have the software coding skills to do so.

  5. #5

    Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    Jimi,

    In the short run, you could try a Wacom tab and Finale/Overture/Sibelius. There are certain macro programs out there that could inturpret your tapping for the note stems and the assignable buttons on the Wacom might work for your open/closed notes etc.

    Just a thought. With a little work it might work out pretty close to what you hope for. Especially when paired with Overture 3, I think everything there is assignable to everything so you could make your own custom "definitions" for libraries articulations.
    Lincoln Flesch
    Diva, GPO, GOS, LastLibs Bass, Scarbee's SID, BFD, Post Emperor and the MAG.
    ---------------------------------------
    "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
    --Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

  6. #6

    Talking Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    Hi again Link!
    I was planning on using a tablet for the prototype because pressure sensitive screens are crazy expensive.

    I'm going to mess with Overture a little bit more and see how much I can customize it. I remember it had much more extensive sequencing abilities than the other notation packages, but I still wasn't able to make the hairpins play volume envelopes properly. Maybe that has changed? It's been awhile since I've tried it.

    Right now, the default programming of GPO is closest to what is needed for this to work, since it uses filter and EQ sweeps for dynamics. This would be enough for a proof of concept, while full morphing libraries could be used as they become available.

    I intend to use a keyboard encoder (such as those intended for arcade machine emulation) for the buttons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Link F.
    Jimi,

    In the short run, you could try a Wacom tab and Finale/Overture/Sibelius. There are certain macro programs out there that could inturpret your tapping for the note stems and the assignable buttons on the Wacom might work for your open/closed notes etc.

    Just a thought. With a little work it might work out pretty close to what you hope for. Especially when paired with Overture 3, I think everything there is assignable to everything so you could make your own custom "definitions" for libraries articulations.

  7. #7

    Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    Didn't read all of the topic...
    There are companies like http://www.networked-inc.com/ that offer touchscreen panels to put on your conventional flat screen or CRT. 13"-15" from $175 to $299 for 21" screens as far as I saw there, not so bad if you ask me. And also have a look at ebay, in europe they sell 7" touchscreens for cars (I think suited best for navigating system, but isn't that what we want, lol) for well about 250 euros. Better than mice and hand input perhaps and affordable.

    I also read about optical systems that don't need any surface (well for more comfort to yourself one might consider using a table...) - too bad I can't find a link now - afaik it's not finished technology yet (lacking precision) and was intended to replace conventional keyboards for computers. So you could take your staffs and draw it in there.

    PolarBear

  8. #8

    Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    PolarBear, thanks for the heads-up! Using a tablet would kinda defeat the purpose, and these overlays might work.

    I was thinking about positional sensing the other day... that is, why bother making touch screens when you could have a few recievers around the screen that tracked pen movement? It could be more accurate than touch screens.

    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear
    Didn't read all of the topic...
    There are companies like http://www.networked-inc.com/ that offer touchscreen panels to put on your conventional flat screen or CRT. 13"-15" from $175 to $299 for 21" screens as far as I saw there, not so bad if you ask me. And also have a look at ebay, in europe they sell 7" touchscreens for cars (I think suited best for navigating system, but isn't that what we want, lol) for well about 250 euros. Better than mice and hand input perhaps and affordable.

    I also read about optical systems that don't need any surface (well for more comfort to yourself one might consider using a table...) - too bad I can't find a link now - afaik it's not finished technology yet (lacking precision) and was intended to replace conventional keyboards for computers. So you could take your staffs and draw it in there.

    PolarBear

  9. #9
    Senior Member Patthoven's Avatar
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    Wink Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    Jimi,

    For the most part, I don't know what the hell you are talking about, but at the same time I get the overwhelming sense that, you are really frustrated ( because you are probably right) about an implementation that's never been developed despite its tremendous potential. It sounds really useful!!

    Have you thought about talking to someone like Spectrasonics, who in my opinion is not only on the cutting edge, but is probably also open minded enough to hear you out or at least point you in a direction whereby your ideas would be valued and acted upon by those who have the backing to make things happen.

    Just a thought

    Keep on keepin on!!!!

  10. #10
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    Re: My Concept. Developers please read.

    Jimi,

    This is entirely possible. With Overture 4 (where you can edit controllers right on the score) plus a Wacom Cintiq (where you can use a pen to work directly on the screen). GPO is now tightly integrated with Overture 4 and you can do much of what you described. You can enter dynamic or notation markings and have the right patch load automatically. We were demonstrating this at NAMM and people were very impressed. We hope to include Overture 4 SE in the upcoming GPO Advanced library.

    I've used the Cintiq quite a bit and I love it. Especially with notation. You can check out the Cintiq at http://www.wacom.com/lcdtablets/index.cfm

    Your dream has arrived.

    Gary Garritan

    PS. With Overture 4, GPO and a Cintiq, you can display entire full orchestral scores, and use the stylus for editing DIRECTLY on the score.

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