• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17

Topic: The Mythical Liberal Elite

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    The Mythical Liberal Elite

    sponsored links


    ***Advertisments***
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    But therein lies a terribly irony. The country is more economically polarized than ever and it hasn't been as deeply split politically since the Civil War - and yet there is almost no intersection between these two fault lines. This is because it isn't the left but the extreme right which is now getting to frame the question of class, channeling the anger of millions of working poor and lower middle class people into a populist 'backlash' movement against a mythical 'liberal elite'. And so amazingly enough the Republicans, Bush's party of "the haves and the have-mores," are now the voice of the proverbial "forgotten man."
    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...90&ItemID=6854

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    That's the real reason the Democrats have abandoned their base - not out of some misguided election strategy but because they've had to abandon their reformism. It was either that or abandon capitalism, which is as unthinkable to Democrats as to Republicans. Hence the growing convergence of the two parties, to the point where they become almost indistinguishable. Clinton ran a Republican administration in all but rhetoric and Kerry ran a Republican ('Bush-lite') campaign in all but name. It's a pipedream to hope this trend will change. Class matters - even more than winning elections.

  2. #2

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    Of course he's right. We've seen twice in a row that trying to appeal to the inbreds doesn't work.

    But what bothers me is how easily manipulated the public is by perceptions that have nothing to do with reality. All it takes is a bunch of flaming idiot talk-show jackasses to go on about "elitists" and say "flip-flop" - and of course to scream about a new bogeyman (Saddam Bin Laden) - and all of a sudden the masses vote in the most stupid way possible.

    As I posted before, it's easy to see how Hitler came into power.

  3. #3

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    Of course he's right. We've seen twice in a row that trying to appeal to the inbreds doesn't work.

    But what bothers me is how easily manipulated the public is by perceptions that have nothing to do with reality. All it takes is a bunch of flaming idiot talk-show jackasses to go on about "elitists" and say "flip-flop" - and of course to scream about a new bogeyman (Saddam Bin Laden) - and all of a sudden the masses vote in the most stupid way possible.

    As I posted before, it's easy to see how Hitler came into power.
    I understand exactly what you mean Nick, i am talking about here in Australia now, i was talking to my sister, who really is not in to politics at all, now her class interest traditionally is represented by our Labor Party, but the messages coming to her were to vote for the Liberals , which i guess is something equivalent to your Republicans, and i had to tell her you just voted against your best interests, there is a lot of confusion out there, the whole class thing has been so distorted with rhetoric that people dont indentify with the people who could be helping them, but instead indentify with the people who are in fact hurting them. The propaganda has been unbelievably effective and thats the problem.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    305

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    I believe the election was more about fear than anything else.

    The Bush Admin., as we all know, has done a complete job of reminding all of us that the terrorists are out to get us. And then they lie that they have kept the monster at bay since 9.11.

    The only the red states have against "elitists" is that they are over- informed, over-educated, and too in touch with their feelings.

    Jim

  5. #5

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    The idea that an adherance to Capitalism on the part of both parties is responsible for their ideological convergence is false on its face. Economically, the GOP has been moving ever leftward, while the Democratic party hasn't moved an inch to the right that I can see. If anything, the "convergence" of the parties has been as a result of ever leftward movement on the part of the GOP. Just consider how many of the benefit packages and even some regulatory measures have passed under G.W. that Clinton himself couldn't get passed during his administration. The GOP has suddenly flipped sides. I know, I have the voting records and I keep track of them. During the Clinton administration, the GOP primarily worked to keep socialistic policies from passing, and thus worked to preserve Capitalism. But ever since G.W., they've been doing almost the opposite. It is the GOP who has been the driving force behind several entitlement bills (even if the Dems thougth they weren't large enough). This constitutes an ideological reversal from their previous track record.

  6. #6

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    Quote Originally Posted by Brady Wright
    The idea that an adherance to Capitalism on the part of both parties is responsible for their ideological convergence is false on its face. Economically, the GOP has been moving ever leftward, while the Democratic party hasn't moved an inch to the right that I can see. If anything, the "convergence" of the parties has been as a result of ever leftward movement on the part of the GOP. Just consider how many of the benefit packages and even some regulatory measures have passed under G.W. that Clinton himself couldn't get passed during his administration. The GOP has suddenly flipped sides. I know, I have the voting records and I keep track of them. During the Clinton administration, the GOP primarily worked to keep socialistic policies from passing, and thus worked to preserve Capitalism. But ever since G.W., they've been doing almost the opposite. It is the GOP who has been the driving force behind several entitlement bills (even if the Dems thougth they weren't large enough). This constitutes an ideological reversal from their previous track record.
    This is true, but you are only talking about one aspect of the economic picture. The Republican party is not moving leftward when it comes to socio-economic programs or taxation. And most importantly, economics are only one aspect of the government. You seem to forget that in your post.

  7. #7

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Phoenix
    This is true, but you are only talking about one aspect of the economic picture. The Republican party is not moving leftward when it comes to socio-economic programs or taxation.
    What kinds of "socio-economic programs" do you have in mind? I would say any such program is inherently "leftward". The Capitalist view of "socio-economic" programs is that they shouldn't exist in the first place.

    As for taxation, this is true. The one, and almost only, example I can think of where Bush has actually lived up to his billing as a conservative is with the tax break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Phoenix
    And most importantly, economics are only one aspect of the government. You seem to forget that in your post.
    Well, the original assertion was that the convergence of the two parties was due to their embracing of Capitalism, which is an economic system. So I restricted the scope of my post to the economic sphere, as it is the only one which pertains to whether or not this claim is true. If you're implying that the GOP is more toward the "right" because of its military misadventures, then that all depends on your definition of "right".

    I consider myself to be on the "right" insofar as I think that term has any meaning (which is not very much), yet I am not generally a pro-war individual. As I've said before, I'm more of an isolationist. I think our foreign policy ought to be more like that of Switzerland. So does that put people like me on the "left" or the "right"? I think if you delved deeper into the actual views and underlying premises of the Democratic and Republican party leadership, you'd find there is actually very little difference. What outwardly appears to be diametric opposition is actually nothing but a rather small disagreement on how to properly implement the same basic objectives.

    The problem is that the premises and objectives of the leadership of BOTH parties are completely and irretrievably wrong.

  8. #8

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    > "The one, and almost only, example I can think of where Bush has actually lived up to his billing as a conservative is with the tax break."

    This would be conservative if it came hand in hand with reduced spending. To fund tax breaks with loans is more risky than simply not offering the tax breaks in the first place - except in times of emergency.

    Surely, one who chooses to reduce their income and to cover the loss with loans is not seen as managing their personal finances conservatively. To reduce spending and to pay off loans would be the conservative management of one's finances. One would also save for a rainy day and make smart, safe investments. In the end less income would be required, and tax breaks would follow.

    -JF

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    245

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    Many years ago the semantic assignment of "liberal" and "conservative" tags to the Republican and Democratic parties became oxymorons.

    I have attended several lectures by Progressives, John Burch people, etc. etc. One principal has become clear. If you were to build a graph between anarchy on one side -- and totalitarianism (or the more palaitable authoritarianism) on the other you have a much truer perspective about governance.

    Jefferson's doctrine of those who govern least govern best tends to move one toward the middle. Granting regulatory power (moral etc. ) to government moves toward totalitarian.

    A compromised balance is best in my opinion. The struggle to get there now is seeing the pendulum swing toward totalitarian. Somehow the US Constitution which starts "WE THE PEOPLE" has been forgotten in Washington who tends to look at the population as something to be governed in a patriarcal sense as to naive to care for themselves --- while we should be considered as the people who assent to be governed and give them their jobs.

    Frankly -- you must remember -- Hitler was properly elected and gained power more through erosion of rights and creating a feeling of moral superiority in the German population than any dictator in memory. Remember too -- that Stalin killed more people than Hitler while in power.

    Both invaded countries as preemptry protection of their people. Remember the history lesson on Anschluss? Just protecting those weak Austrians and teaching them about their true heritage. Is this a parallel to imposing democracy in the middle east? I am not qualified or powerful enough to answer that question.

  10. #10

    Re: The Mythical Liberal Elite

    Quote Originally Posted by JonFairhurst
    > This would be conservative if it came hand in hand with reduced spending.
    Yes and no (mostly yes). A reduction in taxes, in itself, is consistent with the traditional conservative agenda. But, as you pointed out, implicit in this same agenda is a reduction in the size (and therefore cost) of government. So yes, even here Bush has failed to truly live up to his conservative hype. So exactly why were conservatives celebrating that Bush won re-election? If they knew anything about anything, it surely wasn't because it constituted a "win" for their ideological position! In truth, true conservatives have done nothing but lose, lose, lose ever since this president came into office. Heck, I think the conservative cause was doing better under Clinton!

Go Back to forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •