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Topic: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

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  1. #1

    Wink Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Hello all

    Are there any demos of "the Old Lady" or the "Black Grand" done in
    Kontakt. I would like it for comparison purposes. Most of the Demos
    are done in Gigastudio 3, and do sound very nice.

    The only full Piano library I own is the PMI bosendorfer 290 VSTi, other than GPO and EWQL silver pianos. So I am looking to buy a full steinway library, either the PMI OLD LADY (Yes. I know about the 30 days deal going onn right now) or The Black Grand (Sampletekk).

    I only own Kontakt and do not have Gigastudio. I am trying to decide if I
    should go the Giga route or the Kontakt route. The Kontakt route would
    be the easy way for me, since I already own Kontakt. I know that from
    the numerous research I've done that GS3 along with gigapulse
    captures the complex dynamics of piano sampling better than Kontakt
    does. But are there any after effects or convolution reverbs you could
    add to mimic the dynamics of GS3 in Kontakt (IR reverb, Sir etc) or any
    other plugins. If this cannot be done, I would have no choice but to
    invest in GS3, and all the other hardware cost that comes with GS3.

    Any suggestions.

    I sequence with Cubase SX 2.0.

  2. #2

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Hi ddarwin7,

    did you notice my thread "New Piano Demo"? All you can hear in these demos is done in Kontakt. You can do a lot, and I think for some purposes much more in Kontakt than in GS. Kontakt is a creative tool, GS more a performing tool for large orchestras and so on. So if you want to tweak a lot: stay with Kontakt. (i.e. I love the time machine II ! Try it on solo instruments!)

    I think, NI will implement a convolution plug in as well. And: Kontakt doesn't need any detours like rewire...

    Johannes

  3. #3

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Hi,

    Kontakt in unable to reproduce the "Piano release mode". Release algorythm are static.

    Without this piano release mode, you can't use your piano sample in live. The repedalling is wrong. Kontakt is just good to play piano midi file.

    With Gigastudio 2.5 you can.

    Actually the best way to reproduce the real behaviour of a piano is Gigastudio 3 :

    -> piano release mode (repedaling - release algorythm in realtime)
    -> real time pedal behaviour with gigapulse
    -> pedal Fx and noises
    -> keys action
    -> several close/ambient... perspective without 6 Gb of samples....
    -> release / staccato / real behaviour of soundboard with gigapulse
    -> natural velocity
    -> self mask with pedal down

    Bruce R. can say more in a best english language....

    Just hear the yamaha Vinaudio demo in GS3 format. I love it and Franky use the full potential of Gigapulse

    I hope that Kontakt 2.0 will have the piano release mode and other new features....

    And guess :

    What kind of piano and sampler in this demo ?

    http://www.audiolivepro.com/Guess-the-piano.mp3

    http://www.audiolivepro.com/Guess-the-piano2.mp3



  4. #4

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Thanks for the info

    Olivier, I was to take a guess on the piano for the Mp3 files, I would say Steinway (Probably Steinway Galaxy). Not sure about the sampler thou.

    I checked out Johannes posting (thread "New Piano Demo")of an mp3 fils done on Kontakt, and it does sound pretty descent. I need to do a side by side comparison of the two using the same midi file, to get at the subtle differences. But I am still contemplating getting GS3, and trying to come up with more reasons why I need to take the plunge.

  5. #5

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Thanks

    Thats reassuring to know that there might be room for improvement here, with Kontakt 2. I just so recently got Kontakt 1, so I am assuming they would have a resonable upgrade price for Kontakt 2, when it become available.

  6. #6

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Quote Originally Posted by ddarwin7
    Thanks for the info

    Olivier, I was to take a guess on the piano for the Mp3 files, I would say Steinway (Probably Steinway Galaxy). Not sure about the sampler thou.

    It's not the Galaxy Steinway. It's a older piano sample that i have rebuilt for my own.



    I don't know if Kontakt 2 will have a realtime release for piano and convultion and self-mask and unlimited poly.. I Hope.


    Olivier

  7. #7

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier
    It's not the Galaxy Steinway. It's a older piano sample that i have rebuilt for my own.



    I don't know if Kontakt 2 will have a realtime release for piano and convultion and self-mask and unlimited poly.. I Hope.

    Olivier
    Olivier:
    If by real time release you mean triggering release samples, Kontakt 1.5.3 (which I believe is the current version) can trigger release samples. Don't understand what you mean by self-mask - what does that eman? Thanks.
    de Jack N2MPU FN20
    Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CP Rail/D&H in N
    Proud NRA Life member
    More music equipment than I can shake a pick at

  8. #8

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier
    I don't know if Kontakt 2 will have a realtime release for piano and convultion and self-mask and unlimited poly.. I Hope.
    Ok, I see you are talking about GS... but me me clear some points here...

    1 - KONTAKT HAS RELEASE SAMPLES, AS WELL AS KOMPAKT (and therefore bosendorfer 290).
    2 - If you want convolution you don´t need one inside your sampler, just buy Waves IR or use SIR for free. OH, YES, BECAUSE KONTAKT ALOWS YOU TO USE EFFECTS DIRECTLY IN VST CHANNELS AND GIGASTUDIO DOESN´T, so it´s useless having ONE convolution inside your sampler when you can have ANYONE YOU WISH running outside of it, including GIGAPULSE ITSELF.
    3 - And keep in mind that UNLIMITED POLIPHONY IS ONLY NECESSARY BECAUSE GIGASTUDIO DOES NOT ALLOW MULTIPLE INSTANCES. So if it didn´t have unlimited polyphony sooner or later you would run out of notes, and the only alternative would be bouncing, AS EVERY GIGASTUDIO USER DID IN THE PAST.
    4 - Remember that Kontakt is limited to 256 stereo notes PER INSTANCE! So, if you need more notes, JUST OPEN ANOTHER INSTANCE... You are not going to play 256 notes at the same time on the same instrument, are you???
    5 - The most important fact that almost every GS user ignore is that YOU CAN´T FREEZE GIGASTUDIO INSTRUMENTS, UNLESS YOU ARE IN REWIRE MODE. So prepare yourself to keep bouncing your instruments forever, and doing nutty re-routing maneuvers just to do what kontakt does with only one click.

    Man, I don´t blame gigastudio users for being so passionate about it, because it has been the only alternative in the beggining of computer music... But nowadays Gigastudio looks old. Even the latest version...

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    GigaStudio is by far the most piano-friendly environment.

    Self Mask is critical. This is the feature which manages polyphony based upon strike force. Suppose you are playing middle C on a pedal down piano, repeatedly, from pianissimo to fortissimo, each note louder than the last. Self-Mask causes each subsequently louder, repeated note to cancel out the previous ones. This prevents single-note phase anomalies, as polyphony needlessly builds up, and actually reinforces the behavior of the acoustic instrument. However, if you play a series of middle C starting with Fortissimo and working down to pianissimo, each note is allowed to ring, because this would be the behavior of the piano, once again.

    In other samplers, the notes just ring. Or don't, in some cases. For a long time, one could not sound a same-note unison in Kontakt without the previous note being cut off. This problem existed in release samples, everywhere. I am not even sure that it has ever been properly fixed. It is a very poor implementation, with almost no thought directed towards acoustic instrument emulation. GigaStudio, on the other hand, is fastidiously designed to mimick acoustic instrument behaviors.

    GigaStudio has true piano behavior on pedaling/repedaling. Kontakt does not have this feature.

    GigaStudio, with GigaPulse, gives a person the opportunity to design convolution/resonance into the instrument. This is completely different than stringing convolvers behind an instance of Kontakt. The convolution is tied to the instrument behavior. It is tied into the MIDI behavior. The level and complexity of programming/modeling capability is quite vast.

  10. #10

    Re: Kontakt vs Gigastudio for piano samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce A. Richardson
    GigaStudio has true piano behavior on pedaling/repedaling. Kontakt does not have this feature.
    If, by repedaling you mean the sustain sample fades in and the the not-sutstain sample fades out; you can program this easily in Kontakt.

    I'm curious to know if GS has other release envelope possibilities than Kontakt. I don't like playing short notes with software samples (in Kontakt), since they always sound crap. The new demo by Michael Bearden of Ivory on ilio.com seems to show it does a lot better with short notes in jazz- context.

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