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Topic: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

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  1. #1

    Thumbs up Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Stop me if you've heard this idea before... I am currently under the misguided impression that I just invented this!

    Sampled pianos are already very realistic. Witness the Steinway in GPO... very nice indeed! The only thing they don't do, is account for sympathetic vibrations in the strings. On a real piano, hitting middle C sounds different with the sustain down than it does with it up, due to strings with overtones in common vibrating sympathetically. I had an idea for how to do this artificially, and rather than patent it and make a million dollars I thought I'd submit it to the public firing range.

    THE SIMPLER VERSION
    A piano with the sustain pedal down acts as a resonant chamber of sorts. Yell into an open lid with the pedal down, and you'll get a unique kind of reverb... one with equal-tempermant eq bumps (among other qualities). Question: can this be used as the basis for a reverb impulse? Assuming it could, imagine having this piano-ized reverb switched in and out of the mix, keyed to the sustain pedal (MIDI 64).

    THE INSANE VERSION
    Make an impulse for every note of the piano, and gate them with key down/up messages. This goes to the extreme of letting middle C sound different if the C an octave below is held, vs. if the F below that is held, etc. Since you'd need an impulse reverb for every note in your polyphony, this will probably have to wait until those 50GHz processors come out some time in the next 30 years.

    Of course this all hinges on my question of whether an impulse taken of inside a piano would work the way I'm imagining it to. Anyone with the wherewithal to do such an experiment want to give it a whirl?

    Jamie Kowalski

    ps - If anyone DOES make a million dollars off of this idea, please send me lots of cool things. Thanks.
    - Jamie Kowalski

    All Hands Music - Kowalski on the web
    The Ear Is Always Correct - Writings on composition

  2. #2

    Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Impulses taken this way would work fine - they are already included in some of the pricier libs available today.

    Controlling the impulse by sustain wouldn't be too hard if you routed the sustain data as volume data to the impule plug-in - might not be real-time though - depends on your hard ware - most impulse verbs intro a small latency of their own.
    Alan Lastufka | www.BelaDMedia.com
    Producer/Artistic Design | Content Producer

    20 Things

  3. #3

    Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Jamie,

    Sorry to go OT for a moment but I took note of your "hidden" link there and listened to some of the files. I especially liked "Fuji" and "Sandrine." Nice work. Now, back to the topic.

    Tom

  4. #4

    Red face Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Hi Jamie,

    Check this out, a free VST resonance simulator 'Plus', for both Mac and PC:

    http://www.directxfiles.com/manufacturers/PSP_Pverb.htm

    "PSP PianoVerb is a brand new and FREE plug-in (VST) from PSPaudioware.com
    It reproduces special kind of reverberation originally provided by piano strings. It generates
    reverberation using twelve string operators with adjustable damping and decay time. Each of
    them is tuned to a particular note starting from A(55Hz) to a G#(103.8Hz).


    The PSP PianoVerb string system can be transposed in the range of +-24 semitones, tuned
    within a range of +-100 cents and be detuned as well. Transposing to lower octaves produces
    a bigger and less resonant sound similar to traditional reverbs, while in turn transposing to
    higher octaves produces a very bright harp-like effect. "


    Your idea is an excellent one. Also, General Music has a model for calculating 'sympathetic resonance' and injecting it into the audio stream in their sample based digital pianos - my Pro2 RealPiano does this. The pedal position, up, down, or in between, is properly reflected. The more recent Pro Mega3 is even more sophisticated.

    Trond

  5. #5

    Wink Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Quote.... Question: can this be used as the basis for a reverb impulse?


    Altiverb already has an IR of a Bosendorfer grand for reverb. It sounds yukky on instruments, but if you wanted something to sound like it was recorded inside of a Grand piano, it's the only way to fly.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Styxx's Avatar
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    Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    this will probably have to wait until those 50GHz processors come out some time in the next 30 years.
    Geezzz could you speed up the process? I'm not getting any younger.
    Styxx

  7. #7

    Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Story of my life... invent something cool, find out I didn't invent it. Same thing happened to me with noise-cancellation headphones and ADAT. Someday I'll be first, dagnabbit!

    And thanks for the comments on my pieces, Tom. "A Waltz With Sandrine" just had its 20th birthday, and hasn't been heard in as many years. It sure is fun digging through my old boxes of music! GPO has completely rejuvinated my joy of composition!
    - Jamie Kowalski

    All Hands Music - Kowalski on the web
    The Ear Is Always Correct - Writings on composition

  8. #8
    Senior Member Styxx's Avatar
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    Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Quote Originally Posted by Skysaw
    Story of my life... invent something cool, find out I didn't invent it. Same thing happened to me with noise-cancellation headphones and ADAT. Someday I'll be first, dagnabbit!
    Yeah, I remember in 85 when my eldest daughter was born. I bought a brand new Nissan Sentra and had to buy a car seat for the baby. Getting that car seat strapped in was nothing short of a pain in the ace! I had this brilliant idea to invent a fold down car seat based on the fold down center armrest concept. Never acted upon it because quite frankly (or Johnny) I didn't have the money to pursue a paten. Needless to say, Chrysler came out with the idea as an option some 4 years later. Kick Kick Kick!
    I wonder if that is still an option or if they decided to scrap it for some reason?
    So, ya see man you are not alone!
    Styxx

  9. #9

    Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    "Check this out, a free VST resonance simulator 'Plus', for both Mac and PC:

    http://www.directxfiles.com/manufacturers/PSP_Pverb.htm"

    Just in case Mac OSX users get excited, the plugin is NOT available on the OSX platform (yet . . . ?? maybe we can be hopeful).

  10. #10

    Re: Million dollar idea? - piano resonance

    Great idea (i had it too)! It's natural when you spend a lot of time making your piano samples sound 'real' to sit down at your real piano and notice all the sounds that do NOT come from each single key-press, they come from the damper pedal going up and down, and from sympathetic vibrations all over the other strings. I'm going to try the PsP piano -- sounds a little suspicious, though -- just providing a 'selective damper pedal', the middle pedal of a real grand piano, is not the same thing as finding the piano ambiance.

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