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Topic: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

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  1. #1

    Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    But please, tell me why samplers get such an absurd polyphony increment for every repeated notes pedal dawn (sustain) ...


    Can some one give me a response to that big mystery ?

    Iíve just tryed Kontakt and Kompakt (same engine), e-ve-ry notes are increased !...

    Itís just... so... ridiculous ...

    Is it a ę Master-Piece-Developerís Ľ issue to tell the soft : Hey ! Hey... this is the same note... donít take one more polyphony voice... itís just... needless... thanks...

    I probably could do this with a line in Basic with my first Amstrad !


    Even Gigastudio ę eats Ľ outrageously the polyphony, but not systematically, so itís not ideal, but makes it playable for a Piano work with stereo samples, for example...


    Halion and EXS are the same ?

  2. #2

    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    I think that it has to retrigger the sample, since something like Gigastudio only loads a bit of the .wav data, and not all of it into RAM. If it were somehow possible for the sampler to retrigger the same note without increasing polyphony, I think the sampler would have to KNOW what that data contained. Ther only way it could know that is to load all of that data into RAM. At least that is my understanding on it.

    Mike

  3. #3
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    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal
    Is it a ę Master-Piece-Developerís Ľ issue to tell the soft : Hey ! Hey... this is the same note... donít take one more polyphony voice... itís just... needless... thanks...
    I don't get your point. Whenever you trigger a note, the sampler (hardware/software) is playing the corresponding sample. If you play one note with sustain pedal and you trigger/play that note again, it's obvious that the sample has to be played again. At least this is what I except from a sampler - otherwise I wouldn't have played the note at all! If you don't notice a difference in sound (for the second note) it might be that there is too much going on to notice, but without such a behaviour most samplers would sound pretty fake. When you play a real piano and you retrigger a note with sustain pedal, you will notice that there is a new attack, an additional note, a new sound, whether you played that note before or not - that is how live works

    Malte

  4. #4

    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    Hi,

    I thought axactly the same thing when I started to improve piano's patches :
    One key = one note !
    But it's a little bit more complex than that.

    See for example my MPI Bosendorfer 290 patch at http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=21225

    For overall piano behaviour, i spent many time to set up the fades between repeated notes, for each key of the keyboard and for pedal up and pedal down layers, cause if the fade is too short, it's really unatural.

    This can make us to save up around 5060% polyphony (even more, following the way you play)

    But kontakt/kompakt is the most able to do these kind of setting.

    See my site http://jazzphoton.free.fr

    Xavier Bidault

  5. #5

    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    If you have a sample piano, you can set it up so that louder notes, that is notes belonging to a higher velocity split, shuts off already sounding samples if they are the same key but belonging to a lower velocity.
    Function is called selfmask.
    Worra
    SampleTekk

    Arf, arf, arf...

  6. #6

    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    Hi, all.

    So we can tweak the polyphony management in Kontakt ? Iíll have to study this... But Iím a musician, not a developer... I thinks all libraries should stop a sample when the same sample is repeated to keep the polyphony real...
    Even when a .wav sample is different from the previous one because of mapping, if itís the same key (/ton) it should stop ! Common !
    Do you know a instrument which play two sounds one the same repeated note ?

    Absurd...

    Gigastudio is a bit smarter than Kontakt for this (anyway itís not a feat...). But still heavy in my opinion...


    Hey, Xavier, Iíve just read your topic and site... very interesting...

    Your fade experience is relevant.

    (I post you on Audiofanzin.)


    Gabriel.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal

    I thinks all libraries should stop a sample when the same sample is repeated to keep the polyphony real...
    Even when a .wav sample is different from the previous one because of mapping, if itís the same key (/ton) it should stop ! Common !
    Do you know a instrument which play two sounds one the same repeated note ?

    Absurd...
    Actually, not absurd at all. The GigaStudio behavior is fairly accurate to instrument behavior.

    Consider a cymbal struck with a stick. You hit the cymbal loudly. Then you hit the cymbal softly. The ring from the loud hit does not suddenly end with the soft hit--both are ringing within the physical vibration of the cymbal.

    But if you hit the cymbal softly, then hit it loudly, the first hit is masked by the second one. This is exactly what the GigaStudio "self mask" feature does, thereby recovering the polyphony that would be wasted.

    The behavior of a piano is similar, the only difference being the degree to which the hammer "mutes" an already vibrating string.

    So, the condition whereby each note would automatically mute its repeat would actually be a very UN-natural way to approach the design of an instrument.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    Xavier...very nice playing on your site. I enjoyed Skylark very much.

    Bruce

  9. #9
    Moderator/Developer Brian2112's Avatar
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    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    Hi Crystal,

    Actually I think that you are forgetting something. This is hard to explain but I will try.

    Think of a drums stick hitting a cymbal. When I hit it the first time, it rings. When I hit it the secong time, it rings along with the previous ring but does not cut off the first ring.

    If you set a crash cymblal, for instance, to 1 note of polyphony (=1 cymbal) you will find that it sounds amazingly bogus and unrealistic when two successive notes are played.

    The same is true for a piano note or any other sample.
    As I said it is hard to explain, but rest assured that if you "stop a sample when the same sample is repeated",as you have suggested, I'm afraid that you would really hate how unrealistic this sounds. More, than you hate losing polyphony...believe me. It's something you have to hear rather than have it explained but I hope this helps.

    Brian
    "So what if some parts of life are a crap shoot? Get out there and shoot the crap." -- Neil Peart
    Hint:1.6180339887498948482 Φ

  10. #10
    Moderator/Developer Brian2112's Avatar
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    Re: Please, sampler developers... please...(about polyphony)

    LOL BRUCE..we were typing at the same time!!! ROFL!!
    "So what if some parts of life are a crap shoot? Get out there and shoot the crap." -- Neil Peart
    Hint:1.6180339887498948482 Φ

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