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Topic: How to help the world's poor

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  1. #1

    How to help the world\'s poor

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    Here Peruvian who is shining light on an all-too overlooked problem that keeps much of the world\'s poor population destitute and serves the interests of a privileged few. His name is Hernando de Soto:

    http://www.cato.org/realaudio/desoto-cnn-05-06-04.ram

    http://www.cato.org/realaudio/desoto-cnbc-05-06-04.ram

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/06/state1657EDT0119.DTL

    According to de Soto, 70% of the world\'s population has been deprived of the opportunity to benefit from the wealth generated in the past century. They have thus been kept in poverty, often to the advantage of a privileged few. But de Soto\'s Peru-based organization Instituto Libertad y Democracia (Institute for Liberty and Democracy or ILD) is helping to change that by extending the recognition of property and giving opportunity to the world\'s poor. As a byproduct, de Soto anticipates that the lifting of the world’s forgotten into the modern era of the rule of law and respect for rights will also result in lessened support for global terrorism and will ultimately make the world a safer place by depriving terrorist organizations of their breeding grounds.

    I’m greatly encouraged and inspired by men such as this. Men like this show the way by offering proactive solutions that promote the ideals of individual rights and liberty rather than the alternative of authoritarianism that is so often embraced by the disenfranchised for lack of an alternative.

    How can we help the world’s poor? Let them have property!

  2. #2

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    Brady,

    Before the ranting masses arrive here and start blasting away at how this guy is just a rich businessman who wants to exploit the poor by ... oh I don\'t know ... giving them a road out of poverty, let me just say that this is very cool.

    And it just goes to show the real agenda of many who claim to be friends of the poor who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Wow free markets, rule of law, such radical concepts [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

  3. #3

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    well what has been the role of the World Bank and IMF post Soviet Union?

    and have you heard of all the failed attempts of the above instituitions(by introducing deregulation and privatising the economy) in helping 3rd world countries?

    and in a nutshell B.S.

    here is the reality

    http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199607--.htm

  4. #4

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    charles:
    [ QUOTE ]
    well what has been the role of the World Bank and IMF post Soviet Union?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What are you implying?

    [ QUOTE ]
    and have you heard of all the failed attempts of the above instituitions(by introducing deregulation and privatising the economy) in helping 3rd world countries?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The World Bank and IMF are not capitalistic entities no matter how much you may think they are. They are instruments toward global government, not for freedom and independence. And they often prop up brutal and tyrannical regimes, their supposed efforts at “privatization” etc, are just a ruse and not a reality.

    [ QUOTE ]
    and in a nutshell B.S.

    here is the reality

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Two things:

    1 – Your article utterly fails to address the topic at hand: the poor are helped by the recognition of their property rights, and in the end, it is the poor who benefit most in a truly free market.

    2 – You’ve actually completely ignored the topic here and instead decided to hijack it with your diatribes against the World Bank and IMF – both of which I despise. There is no relationship here.

  5. #5

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    There are examples of good and bad in both the private and public sectors.

    Micro-loans are generally good and come from the private sector. Individuals have used these to help bring themselves out of poverty, while offering valueable goods and services to their neighbors.

    Also good is the public transportation system in Columbia. Rather than build fixed rail lines, they bought busses, which can be easily re-routed. The busses have doors all along the sides, so it\'s easy to enter and exit. They built raised platforms with ramps at the bus stops, so people can just step on and off, and there is easy access for the disabled. They also spend resources to keep the busses clean and safe. Finally, certain roads are restricted to bus-only traffic, so their schedules are predictable and efficient.

    The cost of the bus system is much lower than going with rail or building more roads for cars. The traffic situation has improved, and the poor are able to commute to jobs. The wealthy can continue to use their cars, though some roads are restricted. The overall traffic has improved, so the cars win as well.

    I think the key in both public and private investment is to address real needs efficiently with a minimum of graft or fraud. Realistic or not, that\'s the goal.

    For some services, like restaurants, it\'s clear that the private sector is the way to handle this. Add health and safety monitoring by the government and the patrons are protected, they learn to trust the restaurants and business can thrive.

    For other services, like a public water supply, local government is the way to go. The service is a natural monopoly, serves a critical need and must be maintained in perpetuity. The government may not run the system with perfect efficiency, but the local workers will spend their money back into the local economy. Privatize the system and you are now paying the executives huge salaries, distributing dividends and focussing energy on the stock price, rather than water delivery. Employment and salaries are cut to help pay the executives and non-local investors, and there is no incentive to improve service for the citizens. Of course, one can add huge regulations and penalties, but this futher hurts efficiency. As long as graft is minimized, water systems are best handled by the public system. Heck, if private is so damn efficient, then why does Aquafina cost $1.49 a bottle?

    We need healthy systems both public and private. Where these can be applied to help the poor - and to help the poor help themselves, I applaud the efforts.

  6. #6

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    JonFairhurst:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Privatize the system and you are now paying the executives huge salaries, distributing dividends and focussing energy on the stock price, rather than water delivery. Employment and salaries are cut to help pay the executives and non-local investors, and there is no incentive to improve service for the citizens.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    But this assumes a monopoly, an absence of competition. With competing water providers, there is every incentive to improve service and quality. Just look at the US’s electricity prices, they’re some of the lowest in the world, and it’s because it’s almost entirely private. And that’s without much competition (thanks to government-granted monopolies). If there were more competition for electricity in much of the US, the prices and service would be even better.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Heck, if private is so damn efficient, then why does Aquafina cost $1.49 a bottle?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Because of the same reason an 8-pack of AA batteries costs about the same to run a high-draw appliance like a refrigerator for a month.

    The main point here, however, is that much of the world’s poor suffer because of a lack of practice of Capitalistic principles – not because of too much of it. The standard refrain from the Left is that the poor are impoverished because of Capitalism, but this is actually the opposite of the truth. Where the market is freer and where ALL the population is enabled to participate in the free market, there is more prosperity and more liberty. In essence, if we’re going to help the world’s poor, we need more Capitalism, not less.

    Thanks, Jon. It is indeed heartening that someone has actually taken the time to check out the articles/videos I cited. Much of your reply makes it obvious that you actually paid attention to them – something that does not surprise me from you but is atypical of these forums in general. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] It is a breath of fresh air compared to many here who are quick to give their opinion but slow to hear the arguments of others. Again I applaud you. It is a pleasure to discuss these issues with someone as fair as yourself.

  7. #7

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    Brady that article is about how the world really works, ok, i know it doesnt directly answer this topic, but read between the lines, it shows the real motives, of your country and its ruling elite.

    The Article talks about the methods used by your Country and others in destroying the economy and civil society, of the countries they wish to control, now, the World Bank and IMF are vehicles for this end used by the powerful Economies.

    i dont pretend to be an economist, just looking for connections


    but its not hard to speculate that if you destroy the economy and civil society of a society, you are in a position to exploit the resources of that country, for your own ends, now this has happened time and time again, your article Brady like your Christianity is a total sham, a total , whitewashed sham.

    Your Society, in its present need for Energy resources, needs to steal and abuse the resources of other countries, and it has been willing to put away all concepts of human decency to achieve its end

    AND I STRONGLY ADVISE ANY ONE WITH EVEN A SHRED OF COMMON DECENCY TO READ IT, DONT BE FOOLED, DONT BE FOOLED.

    Iraq at present is the real face of your country, and it has been for most of your countries existence only now they are not even bothering to hide it, your country nows no shame

    [ QUOTE ]
    The main point here, however, is that much of the world’s poor suffer because of a lack of practice of Capitalistic principles – not because of too much of it. The standard refrain from the Left is that the poor are impoverished because of Capitalism, but this is actually the opposite of the truth. Where the market is freer and where ALL the population is enabled to participate in the free market, there is more prosperity and more liberty. In essence, if we’re going to help the world’s poor, we need more Capitalism, not less

    [/ QUOTE ]

    just read the article i posted people and you will see what Brady is saying here is at worst total lies at best pure fantasy, the very mechanisms he is trying to convince you work , are the very mechanisms responsbile for the condition most of the 3rd world is in, just look for yourself do not take anything said by any one on face value, including me

    theory is one thing and it easy to reduce reality to an abstraction

    but look at what actually happens make connections there simply is not enought energy resources on this planet and even if there was the earth would not be able to take the strain of its use if the whole globe was to industrialize.

    this is why energy use has to be controlled, this is why the powerful economies are stealling the resources and using inhumane methods of social control , to pacify the domestic populations of the countries they plunder

    and this is why Hollywood exists, to dehumanize its victims so the domestic populations of the powerful economies remain silent

    this is why Arabs have been dehumanized in your country and this is why they are being treated the way they are , your society has already paved the way.

    so reject the story given here by Brady the reality is very different just connect the dots

  8. #8

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    [ QUOTE ]
    your article Brady like your Christianity is a total sham, a total , whitewashed sham.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    While you make it abundantly clear that you are essentially an ignoramus, what gives you the right to pass judgement on someone else\'s faith?

    Your foolishness is matched only by your arrogance.

    \"Judge not, lest ye be judged.\"

  9. #9

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    charles:
    I’m sorry, but I’ve tried to reason with you and you refuse to see anything beyond your own narrow views. I’m talking about a private PERUVIAN organization and in response you’re preaching at me about the United States. What sense does that make, charles?

    I said that what is needed is more Capitalism because there obviously isn’t enough in these poor places. These poor people are being deprived, by law, of having real capital and therefore are forced out of participating in the free market. You, in response, preach to me about government oppression. What sense does that make, charles?

    None.

    I’m speaking out against government oppression and in favor of bringing the poor up to the economic status of everyone else. Where is the government oppression in that? What do you have against this kind of equality?

    Could it be that you simply are too closed-minded to accept an alternative definition of “Capitalism”? The definition you currently understand is one of national imperialistic aggression. That is a false definition and I suspect you got it from the same people from whom you’ve been getting your definitions of racism (which are very slanted and devoid of objectivity). Like your definition of Racism which is essentially defined as the oppression of ethnic minorities by the white man (thereby assuming that non-whites cannot be racist), your definition of Capitalism is extremely loaded as it appears to be defined as the system of imperialist aggression and exploitation by the United States.

    NEWS FLASH: By even the most widely accepted definition, Capitalism is simply an economic system in which capital is privately owned. And you know very good and well that my personal use of the term Capitalism entails the principles of non-initiation of force and the respect of individual rights. But I don’t need to tell you this because you already KNOW this, charles. And yet you keep coming back with senseless anti-American rhetoric that has absolutely nothing to do with what is under discussion. You further know that I am opposed to all forms of aggression and am one of my own government’s biggest critics. All these things you know, and yet you keep judging me as though I had the opposite views from what I have.

    This is the utmost display of willful ignorance and disdain for fair discussion. You cannot be taken seriously, charles, as you obviously have no respect for the opinions of others. It is one thing to disagree with the opinions of others, but it is quite another to ignore them completely. And it is YET ANOTHER to openly insult someone and their religion. And yet you say you have respect for other’s cultures. That is laughable as your conduct proves otherwise.

    I have lost all respect I may have had for you, charles. Your inability to show respect to others and to engage in a reasoned exchange has lost you all credibility.

    Farewell.

  10. #10

    Re: How to help the world\'s poor

    [ QUOTE ]
    But this assumes a monopoly, an absence of competition. With competing water providers, there is every incentive to improve service and quality. Just look at the US’s electricity prices, they’re some of the lowest in the world, and it’s because it’s almost entirely private. And that’s without much competition (thanks to government-granted monopolies). If there were more competition for electricity in much of the US, the prices and service would be even better.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Generally, a city water system *is* a natural monopoly. Almost all of the water systems in the US are public, and the rates that I have paid have been extremely low.

    In Bolivia the water system was privatized into a 100% monopoly. The companies who gained the contract, Bechtel and United Utilites were even granted the rights to all ground water and rain catchment. The companies attempted to raise rates by 35 to 150 percent. Riots ensued, people died and the deal was cancelled.

    http://gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=34&row=2

    In Atlanta the water system was private for four years. The experiment did not work.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/water/atlanta.html

    Brady, as you wrote, the above stories assume monopolies. In the case of Bolivia the deal was forced by the IMF/World Bank, which you don\'t support. In the case of Atlanta they had gotten behind on maintenance and thought that going private would give a better deal. It didn\'t, when you enter quality into the equation. You don\'t get something for nothing.

    Regarding electricity, my rates have *doubled* in the past few years due to the Enron electricity scam. The Pacific Northwest had the best rates in the nation with our abundance of hydro-electricity under Bonneville Power for decades. We built our homes to use electricity, as it was the correct market choice. We\'re now screwed.

    The scam is supposedly over, competition supposedly exists, yet my rates suck. No theoretical argument will convince my pocketbook that privatization of electricity has been good for me.

    You can also look into Muny Light in Cleveland. Kucinich was the mayor there, and he fought privitization to the point that he lost his job. (The bankers colluded to bankrupt the city trying to force privatization.) Muny remained public and continues to provide the lowest rates in the region.

    The low electricity rates in the US are due to many factors, but they mainly came about from public investment, public utilities and well regulated private utilities. The regulation kept rates stable, allowing for continued investment and safe, modest earnings. Remember, those were the good old days, and we weren\'t exactly communists then.

    When it takes five or more years to build a power plant and electricity is traded on the spot market, how does one go about making reasoned investments?

    But please don\'t think that I want heavy regulation or public ownership in all markets. Just when there is a critical service and a natural monopoly. I don\'t want to buy my clothes from the government. I don\'t want government spooned cafeteria food. And I certainly don\'t want the government to make my sample libraries.

    As you know, I like a balanced approach, and like you, I don\'t want private monopolies or IMF strong-arming.

    I guess the bottom line is... when government ain\'t broke (or is just a bit broken and can be improved), don\'t try to fix it with privatization. Privatization is no magic tonic.

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