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Topic: how do you criticise Israel?

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  1. #1

    how do you criticise Israel?

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    something that really bothers me

    if Israel does something wrong, how do you criticise Israel without being called anti-semitic

  2. #2

    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    Focus on what they do - not who they are. It\'s the fodder in which we\'re all judged in equal light imo.

  3. #3

    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    It\'s also important to be fair-handed. Hardly anything looks more anti-semitic than to wail on Israel for taking out a terrorist leader while justifying the countless suicide bombings that specifically target Israeli women and children. That\'s probably the most common thing I see - people who have nothing but bad to say about Israel but cannot find fault in the terrorists who mericlessly attack Israeli civilians.

    There is fault on both sides, but I tend to favor Israel, one because I\'m a Christian, and two because Israel is the only democratic country that ever has existed in the entire region. As oppressed as you or I may think the Palestinians may or may not be, the simple fact is if they had their way and eliminated Israel (and that is their true goal, make no mistake) the region would be much worse off for it as a Palestinian state would wind up being yet another semi-theocracy with liberty and justice for none.

  4. #4

    Re: how do you criticise Israel?


    the point is the psychology and control of thought, it is almost taboo to criticise Israel as it is taboo to acknowledge that the USA has Weapons of Mass Destruction ( which are in the hands of criminals) surely this cannot be healthy for free individuals to discuss the reality that confronts them, and it would seem if you can justify the censorship, what cant you justify, there is no point to morals , ethics or religion if you accept the censorship of honest dialogue.

  5. #5

    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    [ QUOTE ]
    It\'s also important to be fair-handed. Hardly anything looks more anti-semitic than to wail on Israel for taking out a terrorist leader while justifying the countless suicide bombings that specifically target Israeli women and children. That\'s probably the most common thing I see - people who have nothing but bad to say about Israel but cannot find fault in the terrorists who mericlessly attack Israeli civilians

    [/ QUOTE ]

    proves my point, totalitarianism of mind, no rational way of criticising Israel

    [ QUOTE ]
    There is fault on both sides, but I tend to favor Israel, one because I\'m a Christian, and two because Israel is the only democratic country that ever has existed in the entire region.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    this is loaded!!! Christianity used as a justification for state terrorism,
    again violence can be justified, this simply does not sound like the teachings of Chirst, who taught love thy neighbour and enemies,i have never ever seen any refrence to the justification of violence in the words of Christ, can you give me refrences?

    [ QUOTE ]
    As oppressed as you or I may think the Palestinians may or may not be, the simple fact is if they had their way and eliminated Israel (and that is their true goal, make no mistake) the region would be much worse off for it as a Palestinian state would wind up being yet another semi-theocracy with liberty and justice for none.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    i see we need to get to the facts, can you supply true historical facts, and i will try to do like wise, you also make no mention of Israel as a military base for USA interests as is Turkey, and Eygpt

    and so far the tone of this post has confirmed my question, which is how do you criticise Israel without being branded a anti-semite?


    i can pose some interesting questions :

    are you inferring that Arabs are incapable of moral judgement?

    are you inferring that Arabs are not capable of having democracies?

    (which is odd considering that the USA is having great difficulties itself with its own version of democracy)

    you almost sound anti-Arab to me, is this not, the root of the problem?

  6. #6
    Senior Member
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    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    [ QUOTE ]

    There is fault on both sides, but I tend to favor Israel, one because I\'m a Christian, and two because Israel is the only democratic country that ever has existed in the entire region. As oppressed as you or I may think the Palestinians may or may not be, the simple fact is if they had their way and eliminated Israel (and that is their true goal, make no mistake) the region would be much worse off for it as a Palestinian state would wind up being yet another semi-theocracy with liberty and justice for none.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The PLO (now the Palestinian Authority) has long recognised the right of Israel to exist. It is only Hamas (and other radical splinter groups) that want to eliminate Israel. Even they privately admit this is not realistic. Moderates within Hamas would have settled, had Barak conceded on the right of return and the re-internationalisation of East Jerusalem (which are both actually legal obligations), at Camp David.

    I have a lot of affinity for Jews in general, partly because of their history of being persecuted, and my critical attitude towards Israel is nothing to do with antisemitism.

    The Israeli government must be the only government in history that has a clear popular mandate to illegally occupy and oppress a foreign people and settle on their land. It is no surprise that the Palestinians hold the Israeli people themselves responsible. Nevertheless, I don\'t condone the targetting of civilians on legitimate Israeli territory. But the targetting of adult settlers on Palestinian land is, in my view, legitimate.

    Lets not forget how illegal the current state of Israel is: they were allocated approx. half of the Palestians\' territory by the UN vote in 1948. After the Israelis repelled the immediate invasion by Syria, Jordan and Egypt they grabbed most of the land allocated to the Palestinians, as well as West Jerusalem, leaving only the West Bank and Gaza, and declared their state in 1949. Only the US has ever recognised these borders. In 1967 they invaded the West bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, which they have occupied since. Not only occupied, but also settled: doubly illegal. The Palestinians are a shattered people with no army. Their fight-back options have always been limited to a guerilla war and terrorism. However reprehensible their tactics, they are genuine freedom fighters.

    I find it astonishing that Israel (a state borne through terrorism) and her sponsor have always expected the Palestinians not to fight back. Israeli punitive raids in Gaza and the West Bank are morally no different to the German punitive raids on villages in occupied France in responce to Resistance activity during WWII.

  7. #7

    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    I don\'t understand why you\'re asking that question, Charles. Are you anti-Semitic?

    Personally, I think Israel deserves plenty of criticism for the way they behave. But we (the U.S.) should have told them years ago right at the beginning that they would get no money if they built West Bank settlements. That would have put an end to the problem before it began.

    I also think that George Bush is an idiot of an even higher order than he was before - which actually isn\'t possible - to have come out on Israel\'s side and wipe out what little sway we had with the Palestinians. Our role should be to mediate peace, not to embolden Israel so they go out and kill Hamas leaders and escalate all the problems yet again - and not to alienate Jordan and Egypt.

    What a [censored] moron.

    And the worst part of it is that he\'ll probably get some Jews to vote for him because of that - which was what was on his ****** feeble mind to start with.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
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    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    Well spoken, Beckers.

    I would also have sympathy for the emotionally and physically abused wife who, when her tolerance for her husbands psychopathology has ebbed, attempts to defend herself and in so doing, kills the bastard.

    And by the way: I have nothing against husbands.

    Jim

  9. #9

    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    [ QUOTE ]
    I don\'t understand why you\'re asking that question, Charles. Are you anti-Semitic?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    actually Nick, i really dont understand your question either, i will post the article that prompted my question, and i have read many such articles, i asked the question for the very simple reason, how do you engage in rational debate when faced with these kind of psychological tactics?

    Criticize Israel?

    by Robert Fisk; April 26, 2004

    Behold Mary Robinson, former president of Ireland, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, would-be graduation commencement speaker at Emory University in the United States. She has made a big mistake. She dared to criticise Israel. She suggested - horror of horrors - that \"the root cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict is the occupation\". Now whoah there a moment, Mary! \"Occupation\"? Isn\'t that a little bit anti-Israeli?

    Are you really suggesting that the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip by Israel, its use of extrajudicial executions against Palestinian gunmen, the Israeli gunning down of schoolboy stone-throwers, the wholesale theft of Arab land to build homes for Jews, is in some way wrong?

    Maybe I misheard you. Sure I did. Because your response to these scurrilous libels, to these slurs upon your right to free speech, to these slanderous attacks on your integrity, was a pussy-cat\'s whimper. You were \"very hurt and dismayed\". It is, you told The Irish Times, \"distressing that allegations are being made that are completely unfounded\".

    You should have threatened your accusers with legal action. When I warn those who claim in their vicious postcards that my mother was Eichmann\'s daughter that they will receive a solicitor\'s letter - Peggy Fisk was in the RAF in the Second World War, but no matter - they fall silent at once.

    But no, you are \"hurt\". You are \"dismayed\". And you allow Professor Kenneth Stein of Emory University to announce that he is \"troubled by the apparent absence of due diligence on the part of decision makers who invited her [Mary Robinson] to speak\". I love the \"due diligence\" bit. But seriously, how can you allow this twisted version of your integrity to go unpunished?

    Dismayed. Ah, Mary, you poor diddums.

    I tried to check the spelling of \"diddums\" in Webster\'s, America\'s inspiring, foremost dictionary. No luck. But then, what\'s the point when Webster\'s Third New International Dictionary defines \"anti-Semitism\" as \"opposition to Zionism: sympathy with opponents of the state of Israel\".

    Come again? If you or I suggest - or, indeed, if poor wee Mary suggests - that the Palestinians are getting a raw deal under Israeli occupation, then we are \"anti-Semitic\". It is only fair, of course, to quote the pitiful response of the Webster\'s official publicist, Mr Arthur Bicknell, who was asked to account for this grotesque definition.

    \"Our job,\" he responded, \"is to accurately reflect English as it is actually being used. We don\'t make judgement calls; we\'re not political.\" Even more hysterically funny and revolting, he says that the dictionary\'s editors tabulate \"citational evidence\" about anti-Semitism published in \"carefully written prose-like books and magazines\". Preposterous as it is, this Janus-like remark is worthy of the hollowest of laughs.

    Even the Malaprops of American English are now on their knees to those who will censor critics of Israel\'s Middle East policy off the air.

    And I mean \"off the air\". I\'ve just received a justifiably outraged note from Bathsheba Ratskoff, a producer and editor at the American Media Education Foundation (MEF), who says that their new documentary on \"the shutting-down of debate around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict\" - in reality a film about Israel\'s public relations outfits in America - has been targeted by the \"Jewish Action (sic) Task Force\". The movie Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land was to be shown at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts.

    So what happened? The \"JAT\" demanded an apology to the Jewish community and a \"pledge (for) greater sensitivity (sic) when tackling Israel and the Middle East conflict in the future\". JAT members \"may want to consider threatening to cancel their memberships and to withhold contributions\".

    In due course, a certain Susan Longhenry of the Museum of Fine Arts wrote a creepy letter to Sut Jhally of the MEF, referring to the concerns of \"many members of the Boston community\" - otherwise, of course, unidentified - suggesting a rescheduled screening (because the original screening would have fallen on the Jewish Sabbath) and a discussion that would have allowed critics to condemn the film. The letter ended - and here I urge you to learn the weasel words of power - that \"we have gone to great lengths to avoid cancelling altogether screenings of this film; however, if you are not able to support the revised approach, then I\'m afraid we\'ll have no choice but to do just that\".

    Does Ms Longhenry want to be a mouse? Or does she want to have the verb \"to longhenry\" appear in Webster\'s? Or at least in the Oxford? Fear not, Ms Longhenry\'s boss overrode her pusillanimous letter. For the moment, at least.

    But where does this end? Last Sunday, I was invited to talk on Irish television\'s TV3 lunchtime programme on Iraq and President Bush\'s support for Sharon\'s new wall on the West Bank. Towards the end of the programme, Tom Cooney, a law lecturer at University College, Dublin, suddenly claimed that I had called an Israeli army unit a \"rabble\" (absolutely correct - they
    are) and that I reported they had committed a massacre in Jenin in 2002.

    I did not say they committed a massacre. But I should have. A subsequent investigation showed that Israeli troops had knowingly shot down innocent civilians, killed a female nurse and driven a vehicle over a paraplegic in a wheelchair. \"Blood libel!\" Cooney screamed. TV3 immediately - and correctly - dissociated themselves from this libel. Again, I noted the involvement of an eminent university - UCD is one of the finest academic institutions in Ireland and I can only hope that Cooney exercises a greater academic discipline with his young students than he did on TV3 - in this slander. And of course, I got the message. Shut up. Don\'t criticise Israel.

    So let me end on a positive note. Just as Bathsheba is a Jewish American, British Jews are also prominent in an organisation called Deir Yassin Remembered, which commemorates the massacre of Arab Palestinians by Jewish militiamen outside Jerusalem in 1948. This year, they remembered the Arab victims of that massacre - 9 April - on the same day that Christians commemorated Good Friday.

    The day also marked the fourth day of the eight-day Jewish Passover. It also fell on the anniversary of the 1945 execution by the s of Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer at Flossenburg concentration camp. Jewish liberation 3,000 years ago, the death of a Palestinian Jew 2,000 years ago, the death of a German Christian 59 years ago and the massacre of more than 100 Palestinian men, women and children 56 years ago. Alas, Deir Yassin Remembered does not receive the publicity it merits.

    Webster\'s dictionary would meretriciously brand its supporters \"anti-Semitic\", and \"many members of the Boston community\" would no doubt object. \"Blood libel,\" UCD\'s eminent law lecturer would scream. We must wait to hear what UCD thinks. But let us not be \"hurt\" or \"dismayed\". Let\'s just keep on telling it how it is. Isn\'t that what American journalism school was meant to teach us

  10. #10

    Re: how do you criticise Israel?

    Fair enough, Charles. It just seemed like an odd question out of context.

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