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Topic: HolyGrail Sympathetic Res. Poly Requirement

  1. #1

    HolyGrail Sympathetic Res. Poly Requirement

    Anyone who owns the Giga version of the HolyGrail Kawai grand (platinum 364Meg load), will have noticed that one note uses up 4 poly voices. This is apparently the sympathetic resonance (inter-string res.) algorithm providing 3 other notes to ring with that note. Result: In G-Sampler LE, true polyphony is 48/4 = 12 notes, and in my current GS96 is: 96/4 = 24 notes. This is O.K. for most stuff (I layer in outboard GEM & OB piano modules, 64 poly, to \"hide\" note offs in dense passages). Tascam should seriously look at the 320 note GS standard. This would be 80 note poly with the current Grail - just right for really heavy playing. However, future \"Grails\" (say, a 700 Meg load VMS Steinway with more robust sympathetic resonance algorithms - say with 7 or 8 notes ringing in each note on long decays (if Q-Up Arts plans such a thing) - might be 40 note poly with a 320 poly GS. The need is there then, for even a 640 note poly GS (80 poly in an 8 note symp. model). Let\'s wait and see what happens. I noticed GeneralMusic\'s sympathetic algorithm doesn\'t rob poly. It must be a better system, but, currently, sample bases are smallish.

    Interesting Note: I used GS96\'s editor to merge & layer the HolyGrail with the Trachtman 1.1Gig Steinway. The resulting piano (just over 1.4 Gigabytes) sounded gorgeous! You had the inter-string sympathetics of the Grail with Warren\'s gorgeous, woody deep, complex, long, Steinway
    samples - something like this is the future!!
    Unfortunately, my PC choked on it.

    Here\'s a rough (brief)summary future PC spec. I will probably need to look at:

    -640 Poly GStudio (for 80 poly on future 8-note sympathetics).
    -Probably a Pentium-5 (\"Itanium\" etc), running at 4GHz or more. (or some sort of dual CPU system).
    -A 1.5 or even 3 Gig VMS Steinway \"Grail\" with full sympathetics. 24/96 wouldn\'t hurt.
    -Easily 2 Gig RAM, perhaps 4Gig RAM, with 2 or 3 Gigs of it dedicated to a virtual RAM drive (pianos need lightning speed access).
    -The HDD specs of 2 or 3 years from now.

    (Or, scrap it and get a piano - but at $80G for a real beaut. that\'s too far out)..

    Happy music all! (Let\'s all wish for sympathetic res. on all kinds of string instruments (guitars too) - it\'s what makes \'em real!!!)..


  2. #2
    Senior Member LHong's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    San Jose, Ca, USA

    Re: HolyGrail Sympathetic Res. Poly Requirement

    The first thing I would do is to upgrade to GigaStudio160 instead of 96.

  3. #3

    Re: HolyGrail Sympathetic Res. Poly Requirement

    Yes, (and thanks kindly for your comments LHong), upgrading to Studio 160 does seem like the best first step at this stage. Though, at only 40-note polyphonic for a 4-notes to-the-note sympathetic resonance piano, it hardly seems worth it. I might wait for GS-320 at this point. (80-note poly for the Grail).

    Thing is too, my July 13 order for GS96 just came in last week (early Oct.) and after all the unreturned calls & other hassles during the 3-month \"delivery\", I kinda want to take a breather for a few months from dealing with those folks - though, Tascam has been a great improvement.

    -Maybe, on the software side, the WinXP Professional upgrade is what I should spring for first (not sure). I\'d love for gobs of RAM (1.5Gig to 4Gig) to be easy & stable for the OS. This rocket science tweaking to get WIN98 to settle down at over 768 RAM is nonsense - I\'m supposed to be making jazz with my time....(have learned a lot of tech. stuff from you guys though..it\'s appreciated, that\'s for sure)..

    -I\'m also so convinced that virtual ram (drive) loading (pre-loading) of entire samples - even 1.5Gig pianos - is the way to go (for lightning transients on huge information-rich pianos with sympathetics etc)., that I\'m scouting out hardware that might serve this need in future. (The sort of far out 4Gig RAM dual 1.4GHz CPU or more, kind of area). I\'m broke at the moment, but January might be a time for shopping. The Halion RAM-slider option is very attractive too. Right now, no one is doing up a Halion piano with sympathetics. I wish they would offer something like this in GS.

    Thanks, -Stories.

  4. #4
    Senior Member LHong's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    San Jose, Ca, USA

    Re: HolyGrail Sympathetic Res. Poly Requirement

    Here are some info. that I\'d like to share with you and someone, whom might be interested.

    Well, I think you are good in calculated the polyphony consumption, how many voice would be taken from the piano/orchestra samples. However, In the reality, within the songs, there are many of instruments are being fade-in and out, when you carefully watch on the polyphony peak metter, you can tell what we are talking about. The huge of voice polyphony usually is taken by the sustain pedal or other similar spcecial control events, who is going to use it all the time? It also be truth that when you use any piano sample programs in live, it is basically different with a sequencer program, due to the keyboard controller has more latency (studio playing is not same live playing), we are noticed that the performance could be about 15~30% better in the MIDI-sequence! Go figure.

    You are right about the polyphony, 160 voice polyphony is not much but it is damned a lot when you know how to use it wisely, otherwise, it will never be enough. Of cource, it is nice to have more voice polyphony, I like what you say 320 Voice polyphony! Who wants to say no?

    About system memory, you don\'t really need 4GB at the moment, 1~2GB is quite a lot! Due to the Giga is ideally as a streaming-data HardDisk-base, not a real Streaming-Data RAM-base. You shall be hit the voice-polyphony limited before the RAM is limited.
    With the 1GB memory system, when we load the 1GB gigapiano, it only takes about 5% of the resource, so you can simply calculate how far (samples) you can go for the 1GB~2GB memory, right? Don\'t forget, there are still many users here only need about 256MB.

    Anyway, just use whatever we could get, It never be enough! Let\'s say that if we give you 4GB memory in the system, maybe the sample-developer might think about better quality sample in 32B@96~192khz (audio DVD) or something like that, it must be required about 4~16 times larger size in sample, then you will end-up with not enough memory resource again. The necessary improvement is CPU\'s Speed, try to get as fast as you can afford, it really be the one, which could greatly benifits into our Digital-Audio-Recording performance.


    [This message has been edited by LHong (edited 10-11-2001).]

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