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Topic: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

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  1. #1

    Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    I\'ve been reading the threads concerning the problems with OSX, and it seems to me the vast majority of us are having problems using GPO with Digidesign hardware... or is it the Digidesign software?

    Can\'t tell yet.

    Logic users, except for one notable exception, seem to be doing fine. Same with Digital Performer users (except for one guy). Same with Cubase users.

    Wonder what hardware the Logic and Cubase guys are using?

    Like Ed, who posted in another thread, I can only get four sounds into GPO tops. But unlike Ed, I don\'t care. All I asked from GPO when I bought it was one track of sound expanded into 32-bit samples. I\'m an audio guy, so once I get that one track of midi, I bounce it to an audio track. If I need more, I just call up another midi track, get what I want, and bounce it to audio again.

    I\'m a satisfied customer.

    That said, someone in another thread wrote, \"So are the Mac guys beta testers?\" Ahhhhh... yeah, kind of. Frankly, that\'s one of the fun things about being a Mac user. You\'ve got to pretty much be a computer geek to survive. So yeah, at this point I\'m an unofficial beta tester.

    For example: GPO Studio simply does not work on my machine using Digi hardware. It does work using the built-in hardware, but that means it\'s coming out of the little speakers on my G4, since all my audio is routed through my Digidesign hardware. Not good. Although GPO Studio recognizes my Digidesign driver, as soon as I switch to it GPO Studio crashes.

    But... when I run the standalone Kontact Player, it recognizes the driver and doesn\'t crash when I switch to it.

    I have to conclude the problem is with the Plogue software. Plogue, a Canadian company (don\'t get me started about Canadians) hasn\'t made anything but betas so far. How the hell did they get into the game? I\'m all for giving the kids a chance, but not in the championships. Was Plogue subcontracted by NI?

    Can\'t tell yet.

    In fairness, I don\'t hear anything about GPO Studio crashing with OSX people who use non-Digidesign hardware, so it might just be a conflict between Plogue and Digidesign, which means the companies are mutually culpable.

    Let\'s review. Native Instruments might be responsible for the poor performance of Kontact in Pro Tools (and it\'s a given if you use Pro Tools, you\'re using Digidesign hardware, so that means it\'s impossible to tell whether it\'s the hardware or the software in conflict with Kontact). But isn\'t Plogue responsible for my GPO Studio crashes?

    This I can tell for sure. It\'s a Plogue problem.

    I also agree with whoever said that Apple is part of the problem -- they need to rally Apple developers to get their code-crunching acts together. If Logic users are having problems with anything whatsoever, that\'s clearly an Apple problem. By default.

    It seems Mac users have a harder go with GPO than PC users, and Digidesign users have the most problems overall. At least, based on what I\'ve read at this forum.

    So why did I mention Unity by Bitheadz? Because Unity could have been the Gigasampler of the Mac world, but they dropped the ball. IT\'S ALL THEIR FAULT, DAMMIT! (Just kidding. Well, just kidding about the yelling anyway.) Bitheadz could have made Gary\'s life easier, but despite having a great Mac-oriented sampler, they just didn\'t jump on the translation bandwagon the way Native Instruments did. You\'ve got to give credit to NI for its vision.

    So what can we do, Mac OSX users? First, we can be beta testers, and find every little glitch on every individual platform, so we know what we\'re up against. Second, we can be activists and write to these software developers directly.

    I plan on writing Digidesign and Native Instuments. I definitely want to let Digidesign know that GPO works on all the other platforms much better than Digidesign\'s. And Native Instruments offesr a link to its Forums on Kontact Player standalone, but as of this writing there is no Kontact Player/Garritan Forum. No, instead Gary gets the flak. NI needs to face the music, as it were.

    As to Plogue, I already wrote to them regarding my GPO Stuido crash when switching to the Digidesign audio driver. Here\'s the definitely-not-out-of-context reply I got from one of their employees:

    \"We have made some changes to our CoreAudio code in the yet unreleased GPO Studio update, but we can\'t make any warranties that this will fix the problem.\"

    Could this mean my GPO Studio problems are solved?

    Can\'t tell yet.

    Mike Jasper

  2. #2

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    I mentioned this in the other thread but will repeat it here:
    Digi does not use core audio for PT nor AU. The only core service they use in OSX is core midi. Protools uses propreitary DAE, rewritten for OSX and RTAS/TDM/HD plugins (their own propreitary stuff).

    Digi does include a core audio driver for using digi hardware with 3rd party apps...but only one app at a time and not at the same time as PT.

    Logic uses AU and core audio. DP uses core audio, MAS and an AU wrapper. Cubase is core audio and VST (doesn\'t use AU).

  3. #3

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    Hi,

    From what I remember Bitheadz was the only sampler game in town for the Mac for a long time. I think that it worked ok (RAM based?). Then the OSX and hard-drive streaming kicked in?? There were reports of it being buggy but I can\'t remember the specifics. So it worked but couldn\'t compete with Gigasampler to which it was being compared. People were begging MOTU to develop a sampler. After ages, MOTU did - Mach 5. But there are few native Mach 5 libraries today, they require importing. I don\'t remember if Mach 5 is a UVI or NI based engine. And, I still think that we are waiting for Mach 5 to even do disk streaming? (not following events as closely as I used to)

    This brings me to a point I made in another thread. Apple should give more \"development\" attention and assistance to companies, such as Bitheadz and MOTU when they are trying to break new ground and GAIN Apple customers. It took Apple and its developers forever to even get started in the hard-disk streaming category. GPO doesn\'t stream, but GOS does and noone was competing with Gigasampler\'s powerful streaming capability. To date, it still appears that Mac streaming does not match Gigasampler. Or does it? I\'m not sure.

    So, I again suspect that these development issues were mired in the big mush of OS X development and that Apple\'s priorities at that time were not pro-audio, or pro-music. Thus, ALL sample libraries went PC. They went Gigasampler.

    So again, I place some of the blame on Apple in not coming to the table sooner with regard to sample libraries and hard-drive streaming. Hopefully, Apple is NOW working diligently with ALL of their developers including NI, Digidesign, MOTU, and Pogue to give them the support they need to compete. They are not only competing with Gigasampler and NI, but with Apple\'s own new products (GarageBand and Logic Pro). Despite this, Apple needs its competing partners and should allow them to develop that best and timely products that they can. Let\'s hope.

    Just a thought.

    John

  4. #4

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    Originally posted by deceptivesound:
    I have to conclude the problem is with the Plogue software. Plogue, a Canadian company (don\'t get me started about Canadians) hasn\'t made anything but betas so far. How the hell did they get into the game? I\'m all for giving the kids a chance, but not in the championships. Was Plogue subcontracted by NI?
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Please, Mike, do get started. What is it about us Canadians exactly? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

    As for Plogue, they\'ve been around for a while, so I wouldn\'t call them kids. Just do a search for their very cool software called Bidule (unless you don\'t want to get started about the French-Canadians, bien sur), and you\'ll find lots of interesting info. As for their software having bugs, well, unless you\'re new in this field, surely you know that all, every single software company releases software with bugs in it... no? That\'s what decimals were invented for: 1.2, 1.3.0.7, etc

    Finally, you asked what hardware Logic users are using. Here\'s my example: G5 Dual 2Ghz + MOTU 828 MKII. Works like a charm.

    Good luck with Digi.

  5. #5

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    Ned --

    Great post.

    You write, \"As for Plogue, they\'ve been around for a while, so I wouldn\'t call them kids. Just do a search for their very cool software called Bidule \"

    I went beyond researching Plogue. I downloaded the Bidule software and tried it out. It did not crash the Digi driver, oddly enough. However, I did have problems using Midi with it. Only half the notes on the keyboard worked and big latency. That said, the appplication is interesting, and very similar to Cycling 74\'s MaxMSP. Or Logic, for that matter.

    Of course, Bidule is still in beta, as is all of Plogue\'s products except a couple of plugins.

    Thanks for the info on your hardware. I\'m guessing with that set up, everything\'s working fine.

    Mike Jasper

  6. #6

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    Mike,
    We\'ve been pretty happy for the most part with Plogue, and they\'ve done a nice job with GPO Studio. Regrettably I\'m sure GPO Studio does have some bugs, and it\'s possible you\'re being hit with one. It\'s also possible that there\'s a driver incompatibility issue. I\'d like to look into it, if you could send to me a private message with your email. Regardless of the cause, I\'ll investigate the problem. In order to use GPO Studio, your driver will need to support either CoreAudio or ASIO. Hope this helps

  7. #7

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    Originally posted by deceptivesound:
    dcornutt writes:

    \"Digi does include a core audio driver for using digi hardware with 3rd party apps...but only one app at a time and not at the same time as PT. \"

    Right. But Pro Tools itself doesn\'t use Core Audio, as you said. So your point would be that\'s the problem with Digidesign compatibility issues on Mac OSX?

    Mike Jasper
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Digi wrote a limited coreaudio driver (not based on full apple spec) that ties in with DAE. You cannot now even use the core audio driver that comes with digi hardware without having DAE installed. So, I\'m not surprised to hear that some 3rd party standalone apps are having issues with the Digi coreaudio driver that do not exist elsewhere. That would be \"one point\".

    My 2nd point was..that Digi uses RTAS plugin format (not AU). That would mean that any issues GPO has within PT as a plugin..(based on NI kontact engine), have nothing to do with apples AU spec.

    It has been asserted by Gary and others that the major issues in development for mac have been hurdles imposed by an ever changing AU spec, sdk, etc. Question: as you , and other, PT users come forward with complaints, how could an ever changing AU spec be the root cause of your issues (ie..apple), when Digi does not use it, but their own, proprietary RTAS plugin format that apple didn\'t write?

    As to core audio..and running GPO standalone..as a VST...you yourself admit, it works fine under apple\'s built in (using apple\'s core audio driver). But, does not work under \"digi\'s\" core audio driver, which is not built to full core audio spec. It works under MOTU\'s core audio driver (which is built on apples spec). It works on other core audio drivers..but not Digi\'s. That\'s not apple\'s issue, that\'s Digidesign, who has imposed their own proprietary limits on it for their own reasons. (not unusual).

    That said, you should call Digi to find out if there is something you can do on that end. YOu have to \"share\" the Digi hardware to use the core audio driver. Make sure you\'ve covered that ground with them. It also could be something in the code that\'s causing a crash in the 3rd party app based on calls from digi\'s core audio driver. I know digi\'s core audio driver works with thigns like itunes, etc..but there have been issues (listed in the compatiblity docs on digi\'s site) where it has not worked with some 3rd party apps along the way. In that regard, make sure you have the latest, greatest PT updates (which include the newer digi core audio driver).

  8. #8

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    [quote]Originally posted by dcornutt:

    It has been asserted by Gary and others that the major issues in development for mac have been hurdles imposed by an ever changing AU spec, sdk, etc. Question: as you , and other, PT users come forward with complaints, how could an ever changing AU spec be the root cause of your issues (ie..apple), when Digi does not use it, but their own, proprietary RTAS plugin format that apple didn\'t write?
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Once again, I don\'t understand how any of this is of any interest to me as a consumer.

    If RTAS is too difficult to deal with, then don\'t support it.

    If a product lists support for RTAS on its box, then I, as a consumer, should expect a certain level of RTAS compatibility.

    No surprise there, I hope.

    Ed

  9. #9

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    dcornutt --

    Great post. Very insightful. Thanks for fleshing out that whole DAE vs. CoreAudio and the implications of same for me.

    And you brought up something amazingly obvious that I didn\'t consider -- do I have Digidesign\'s latest CoreAudio driver? I don\'t know. I would have thought I\'d have heard of the upgrade, but maybe I didn\'t.

    I\'ll tell you what, if I don\'t, and then upgrade, and then GPO Studio works... I got some \'splaining to do. And a big apology to Plogue.

    I\'ll get back to everyone on this.

  10. #10

    Re: Plogue, NI, Mac and... Unity? OSX users unite!

    Jeff
    My problem with GPO Studio/Core Audio is quite specific. Studio kicks my PT 192i/o into 96k when it boots. I think this is the area that need investigation.
    Hope this helps

    Todd Kasow

    Mac Dual 1.25/ 1 gig ram/ 10.2.8..all the latests GPO/NI/CoreAudio updates

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