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Topic: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

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  1. #1

    Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Well, I finally did it, I took the leap of faith and purchased Sonar X3. I tried the demo out a little while ago. Overall it is a better engine than Sonar 8.5 However, I am still having trouble coping with the midi editing... I draw all my notes in piano roll and in Sonar 8.5 it is so much easier with the single click to add notes. I guess with time I will learn to adapt. Does anyone else prefer the midi editing in Sonar 8.5 as compared to Sonar X3?

    Regards,

    Richard

  2. #2

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by sururick View Post
    ...I am still having trouble coping with the midi editing... I draw all my notes in piano roll and in Sonar 8.5 it is so much easier with the single click to add notes.

    I guess with time I will learn to adapt. Does anyone else prefer the midi editing in Sonar 8.5 as compared to Sonar X3?...
    Replying to your last part first, yes I still prefer MIDI editing in 8.5. I think after so much time using one system, and getting so adept at it, it's bound to be difficult to get used to a new system. But I've been working with X3 for a couple of weeks now and there is less pain involved. I'm adapting, I keep looking up info, and discovering good things I didn't see at first.

    "So much easier with the single click..." I'm not sure what you mean by that, Richard. It still only takes one click to add a note. In 8.5 you had to click to have the correct tool, then start inserting notes. Same with X3 - Once you have the tool, it still only takes a single click.

    There may be a few things you haven't found or appreciated yet:

    --The Smart tool is really what you want to use most of the time. You can use the Draw tool for inserting notes in a way that may feel more familiar, but that's all you can do - it's limited to just drawing. Better to stay with the Smart tool. The main thing about inserting notes with the Smart tool which is different from 8.5, is that you aim for your spot then have to move a bit either up or down for the note to appear.

    --Use computer keyboard shortcut "T" to bring up the Tool palette right where you're working in the PRV. You don't need to keep moving all the way up to the top tool bar. Click "T" to change tools if you want.

    --You don't need the Erase tool to erase notes. With the Smart tool, hover over a note, right click, and the note is erased.

    --In either the top Tool menu or the floating one, go to the bottom right corner to choose the note resolution - And the very last one is the most useful - "Last touched." Using that option, you'll have the feature you're used to, of being able to continually enter new notes of the same duration without constantly having to choose a length.

    --When you place a note, you can change it's length right then. Don't let go, move right or left, and you edit the length. SNAP OFF for full flexibility of both note placement and note length.

    --In Preferences ("P" keyboard shortcut) Customization>Snap to Grid - be sure you choose the way you want your Snap intensity to work. Play with the settings to get a feel of how they work. I usually work with the Grid off, but if I want the Grid on, I want the snap to be definite, so I have that slider all the way to the right, "Extreme." Having the Grid just sort of on I find just confusing.

    There are a few things that may be helpful - Main point is, you will adapt - And from your post, I had the feeling that you haven't quite figured out how to use the new PRV, and things are more difficult for you than they need to be.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Thanks for the feedback and tips Randy. The one thing that is bothering me is that in Sonar X3 with the smart tool you have to double click to place that memorized note length. You can press alt and click to put it in with a single click but then you can't drag the note. I did just notice you can drag the note up or down etc and then it will appear as if I did a single click but it can sometimes adjust the length if your not careful.

    Basically, in Sonar 8.5 I draw the length and it memorizes the length and I can single click and drag the note anywhere without the length of the note being effected. I drag the notes because it helps when I can hear the tones.

    Regards,

    Richard

  4. #4

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by sururick View Post
    Thanks for the feedback and tips Randy. The one thing that is bothering me is that in Sonar X3 with the smart tool you have to double click to place that memorized note length. You can press alt and click to put it in with a single click but then you can't drag the note. I did just notice you can drag the note up or down etc and then it will appear as if I did a single click but it can sometimes adjust the length if your not careful.

    Basically, in Sonar 8.5 I draw the length and it memorizes the length and I can single click and drag the note anywhere without the length of the note being effected. I drag the notes because it helps when I can hear the tones.

    Regards,

    Richard
    You don't have to double click to "place that memorized note length." Choose the "last touched" option, as I said. I haven't been doing any double clicking for anything. You don't have to press alt and click either - Re-read my earlier response and experiment more. You just move up or down a tiny bit to plop a note in, then move left or right to change the length. No need to be fussy about your note lengths anyway - If you accidentally have a length a fraction longer or shorter, so what? Very easy to fix even after you've moved off the note. Just grab the end and fix it with the Smart tool.

    You also don't have to drag notes in either 8.5 or X3 to hear the notes - That's odd. You just click on a note right where it sits and it will play.

    EDIT: If you want to select a note and drag it to a new position, it won't change the length. Move the cursor to over the middle of the note, and you'll see the Smart tool has changed to the Move tool - it won't change the length, it just - Moves the note without changing it.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    I guess it is that I am bit fussy! LOL! I do have the setting on memorized last note. I am sorry, I am very bad explaining things. In Sonar 8.5, say I draw one full measure and it auto memorizes length just like the setting memorize last touch in X3. Now here is where the difference is, the one that bothers me.

    In Sonar 8.5 I can go to the next measure click on the spot once without moving up or down, just a regular click. In X3 you have to double click, or press alt and click, or you have to move the note slightly left or right. In Sonar 8.5 it just appears with one click, no movement. This really is just a preference issue of mine.

    I am sure I will learn to adapt once I give it some time. I am really looking forward to using the new 384000 hz sampling rate and working WASAPI drivers. I don't have asio since my new computer because my old emu-1212 is a pci and my new computer only has PCI. Wasapi drivers in Sonar 8.5 make sonar hang on shut down. I basically have to shut it down in task manager. So, there is definitely some perks to Sonar X3. I just gotta get past that one part in midi editing.

    Regards,

    Richard

  6. #6

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by sururick View Post
    ... In X3 you have to double click, or press alt and click, or you have to move the note slightly left or right...
    Richard, none of that is correct. You do not have to double click, you do not have to press alt and click, and you do not have to move the note slightly left or right. The difference in placing notes in X3 with the Smart tool is that after you've aimed to where you want the note you sweep just slightly Up or Down and then the note appears. After doing that for one session, it becomes a new movement you'll do without thinking. You control the length by continuing to hold the left click down and moving it to whatever length you want. If you really want to insert notes without that tiny bit of movement up or down, then use the Draw tool - but it's limited, since it can't change the length of notes.

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    I must not be explaining this right. :P Perhaps this will help explain what I mean. The default tool in Sonar 8.5 is like the draw tool in X3 but with the flexibility to adjust the lengths. I know you can click once and drag the length or move the note slightly to get the memorized length. I click once on the mouse in Sonar 8.5 and it places my last drawn note in the position I want it with no hassle, like the draw tool but with flexibility.

    EDIT:
    I am doing a video right now to show you what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Draw tool - but it's limited, since it can't change the length of notes.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Here is the video. Those pauses in the X3 version of the video are me trying to do the same method as in the Sonar 8.5 version, a single click no movement entry of notes. Also, with the single click entry of notes I can auto drag and move (left, right, up, and down) the memorized note in Sonar 8.5 by default. In X3, you have to move the courser slightly in order for the note to appear, or double click. However, in X3 once you place the note you can't drag it left or right, only up or down initially. Sonar 8.5 gets the job done faster for somebody who uses the piano roll view the way I do with less hassle. Again, though... maybe I just got too used to using Sonar 8.5 and really need to give X3 some more time.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=562341983878405

  9. #9

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by sururick View Post
    ...In X3, you have to move the courser slightly in order for the note to appear...
    Yes, as I've said in every response, when you place a note in X3, a slight upwards or downwards sweep is needed to insert a note. But that's why no double clicking or use of the Alt key is required.

    I couldn't tell quite what was going on in your video, Richard, because you didn't have your capture program set to record your cursor - I could only see notes appear. The one thing I could see that you were demonstrating is that in 8.5 when you're initially inserting a note, you have the choice right then to move it right or left if you want, and in X3 you have let go of your left click for a moment to get the Smart tool to temporarily be the Move tool. Got that.

    You're fortunate, Richard, to have both 8.5 and X3 available. If you really can't manage to adapt your workflow so that PRV editing is just as fast for you in X3, even though that is very possible, then you do have the option to work in both programs - using 8.5 for MIDI editing, X3 for other phases.

    I was planning on having both 8.5 and X3 on my computer, but as I think you know, installing X3 killed my 8.5. Nobody has been able to figure out why that happened, but I'm stuck with having just X3 and have had to get on with my work. When I try to open 8.5, I still get the Runtime Error which started with the X3 installation. I'm unable to simply uninstall X3, that doesn't fix things, and when I try to do a Restore Point, my CPU shoots up to 100% and won't budge. But I don't want to get rid of X3, I Do want the program, I had just hoped to have both available. I can't have both - I've had to move on!

    I have my own complaints about X3, but a few weeks into using it now, I admit that I'm adapting to and enjoying the program much more than I thought I would. MIDI editing is now just as fast for me as it was in 8.5, because I've gotten the feel for how the tools work, unlike that first week when I was very clumsy with the tool bar.

    I think it's possible that part of your problem is the way you're still insisting on working with the Snap on. Since you can have the PRV's grid displayed however you want, it's totally obvious where notes should be placed, and with the Snap off, you're not stuck with robotic quantization. You may want to take advantage of the Smart Grid also, since that lets you toggle back and forth between two different flavors of Snap.

    You may also want to become more accustomed to using your computer keyboard for the keybinding switches available. If your left hand is generally resting on your keyboard, all sorts of things can be accessed much more easily than having to mouse click on menus - For instance, F5 and F7 toggle the Smart tool and the Move tool. Using a combination of those keybindings and a mouse gets you around faster in the PRV.

    Carry on!

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: Sonar X3 Coping with the Midi Editing

    Hey Randy, I found a real cool TRICK! You can actually drag and drop the midi tracks from Sonar 8.5 to Sonar X3. I didn't think it would work, but I just gave it a test with having both sonar programs open. That's kind of cool! So for the time being all I have to do is just setup some basic midi functions to do editing in Sonar 8.5 and then keep the actual virtual instruments in X3, and then drag over to X3!

    It might just work for the time being until I get used to the midi editing in X3. LOL, might be a bit of hassle as compared to just doing all editing in sonar 8.5 then just re-opening it in X3, but I thought it was a pretty cool thing! As mentioned earlier, two solid things that I love about X3 is that WASAPI actually works and the new ultra high sampling rate. Yeah... that snap on is such an addictive habit.

    I was trying a little while ago with it off, but I just put it back on out of second nature. Well, I am still glad I made the upgrade, it does seem to be a more solid engine. That really is messed up that you cannot have both programs and having to take the hard leap to X3. Oh well, it is the future of Sonar, which IMO is still the best DAW. I tried a demo of Cubase... then I quit in less then 10 minutes.

    Regards,

    Richard

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