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Topic: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

  1. #1

    The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

    This post follows on from something I wrote on another thread (the name of which should be obvious!). It is rather off-topic for the original thread so I decided to start a new one.

    A few months ago I purchased licenses to all of Michiel Post’s pipe organ sound libraries (as part of the special “DVD collection” deal). There are four of these libraries: Post Organ Toolkit, Post Organs for GigaStudio, Post Positive, and Post Theatre Organ. In this post I will confine my comments to just the first two.

    As I expected, the Toolkit has not proved to be of any real use to me. I know other users have posted positive comments (accidental puns are hard to avoid!) about it on this forum, but it is rather out-dated and there are much better pipe organ samples available now.

    However, I was disappointed to find that Post Organs for GigaStudio is no more to my liking than the Toolkit. It is supposed to be a new improved and up-dated version of the Toolkit. It is certainly much larger in file-size terms than the Toolkit (about three times the size). As we agreed on the other thread, “what matters is not the file size but how it sounds”. But this cuts both ways. My suspicions were aroused about the PMI Bosendorfer because of its relatively small file size compared to the Steinway even though the demos sound excellent. In the case of Post Organs for GigaStudio, I was fooled into precisely the opposite fallacy. I thought it would sound much better than the Toolkit because it was much bigger. (The insufficiency of demos left me with little else to judge by.) I had especially high expectations of the much enlarged Concertgebouw and Krijtberg/Bavo patches with longer samples and new release trigger ambience. However, I cannot perceive any real improvement over the sounds in the Toolkit. So I find myself wanting to ask exactly the opposite question I asked about the Bosendorfer: How did you manage to make such a mediocre-sounding sound library so large? What happened to all those extra megabytes that should have made a difference?

    I would be very interested to hear what other users have to say about Post Organs for GigaStudio. In what kind of projects or performances has it been used and how? I would be grateful for any advice on the application of this sound library which at the moment is just sitting forlornly unused (taking up a lot of valuable disc space!) on my hard drive.

    Actually, in response to my own question about how Post Organs for GigaStudio can be so big, there are a few things I have concluded already. Firstly, the long release samples (average about 10 secs) consist mostly of what for all intents and purposes is dead silence. These could have been cut down to one half or a third their length without making any significant difference to the sound. Secondly, the main key-on samples, which had supposedly been made longer, actually consist mostly of short samples with repeated loop extensions built into the actual sample wave. The loop start and end points are set in such a way that a good portion of the samples are not used anyway. So what was the point of making them longer? They just take up hard drive space unnecessarily. I exported a random selection of the waves from the gig files so that I could examine them in a wave editor, and to my surprise this is what I have discovered.

    I do not like writing negative posts, but I have been holding back on this one for a while, and now seems like the time finally to say it.

  2. #2

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

    Well DCB,
    I can only talk about Post Positive Organ, it\'s the only PMI organ I have.
    I used it many times, out-of-the-box, mostly for baroque music in a 4 singers+positif formation and was never disappointed. Nevertheless, this kind of music is a flaw enhancer for badly sampled instruments but I never had a comment about the organ\'s sound quality -even no comments at all except for the music, which indicates the \"sampled\" part of it was totally accepted by listeners . This kind of audience knows perfectly what a \"positif\" is and often have greater ears than Dumbo.
    Having said that, why should I bother about size or loops...
    Like the other Michiel\'s libs I tried and baught, I got this \"hand crafted\" feeling, as if it was made only for my personnal use, not to mention the Submit Button part of it which is almost unfair for the developper...
    I also own Post Hapsichords I and II and Post Fortepiano, same comments about quality and purchase price, it never made me anxious about the files sizes and I\'m going to stop here before completely falling OT.
    I just hope PMI (or anyone else with a magical sample touch) will release other *rare* instruments, like say... A baroque strings consort? baroque winds like saqueboute (trombone ancester) or serpent? Of course we\'re out of the ordinary Zimmiams range here, but even if there is only one baroque scored movie every twenty years, oh god I\'m so OT now (brakes skid)

  3. #3

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

    Hi David
    I will not try to answer the question you ask, nor comment on the individual remarks you made. I just want to point out one thing.
    The largest portion of the organ libraries we made were all recorded in the pre-Giga age (remember those 32 MB ram-based samplers?). In those days we had to record short samples, forget about note-for-note sampling and release triggered ambience was kind of SF for us.
    Time flies and 7-years old libraries are more or less outdated in terms of sample length and loops. However the collection is still unique in other aspects; there is no other collection with so many different registrations, such different organs etc. Your comment suggests these samples are useless for you. I can assure you there a lot of people who disagree. We have a lot of happy users that still find the collection of unique value and use it in every day situations. You are most likely not a church organ player.

    BTW we have taken efforts to bring out updates to the organ libraries that could solve problems in certain areas. KingIdiot is working (...wake up King!) on patches and we\'ve asked another expert for assistance.
    Michiel Post

  4. #4

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

    Just a little plug:

    I have been very very pleased with every library purchased from Mr Post (err, most from BiggaGiggas .. i \'ll get to that). He offers a specialty not offered by many sample producers. Without wonderful samples like the Forte-Piano, Harpsichord collections and the Postif, my resources would be harshly lacking the beautiful colors those samples add to my early chamber music works. needless to say, i have no complaints.

    i recieved the fortepiano as xmas gift from my wife last winter .... i felt like a child again .. heheh.... such a lovely little piano.... conjures up the mozart and chopin in me everytime i play it!!! those ones mentioned above are a MUST for any composer .... considering .... there is nothing else out there like them!!!!

    one thing, i was wondering why the latest sample sets are not offered through BiggaGiggas ?? I prefered to order from there, considering they appear to ship from here in the US. i just wondered.

    again, thank you Michiel .... sometimes the $$ paid for the sample is not enough compensation for the great inspiration a sample can give a composer. so glad i\'m able to extend my gratitude here on the forum.


  5. #5

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

    Originally posted by noenoeil:
    I just hope PMI (or anyone else with a magical sample touch) will release other *rare* instruments, like say... A baroque strings consort? baroque winds like saqueboute (trombone ancester) or serpent? Of course we\'re out of the ordinary Zimmiams range here, but even if there is only one baroque scored movie every twenty years, oh god I\'m so OT now (brakes skid)
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Sounds like a wonderful idea :-) Of course, a specialty library like that would not sell like hot-cakes, but for a few it would be worth it\'s weight in gold. As far as i know, there are no decent samples of period orchestral instruments. Maybe in due time **wink**wink**

    While we are off-topic ... i once had the experience (or almost unforunate experience) of having to work a booth at a national drum corp competition. For the record, i think marching around in circles with intruments tied to ya is a bit silly. Although, the HUGE sound of those drums in an arena is amazing!!!! Of course, i thought to myself ... \'boy, i\'d love to have samples of that\' -- probably would not cost very much to get a high school group to bang on some drums for about 3 hours. I don\'t think the precision of someone like the Blue Devils would be needed to achieve an usable outcome.

    For now, i find the G-Town toms and snares a happy compromise :-)


  6. #6

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?


    Thank you very much for reading and responding to my comments. I appreciate very much the fact that you take the time to read and reply to feedback from users of your sound libraries, even in this case where the opinions I expressed are negative and apparently in the minority.

    I would also like to say that I am a regular and very satisfied user of many of your other sound libraries, such as the Grandioso Steinway, the harpsichords and the fortepiano. I also do like your two more recent organ sound libraries: the Positive and Theatre Organ. The problems I had with these have to do with the programming, which is something I have been able to fix myself. I will also take this opportunity to thank you once again for responding very promptly to my earlier e-mail about the theatre organ (back in May/June this year).

    Contrary to the impression you seem to have gained from my first post on this thread, I do play the pipe organ. I have also contributed several other posts to this forum on the subject of pipe organ samples. Besides the four Post organ sound libraries, I have licenses to five other pipe organ sample collections. For the record, these are as follows:

    USB/Studio JBF Church Organs (Akai)
    Propeller Island Church Organ (Akai)
    Peter Ewer’s Symphonic Organ (Giga)
    VR Sounds 3D Pipes (Giga)
    Kevin Moreland’s Macedonia Organ (Giga)

    Of all the nine organ sound libraries I have (the above five plus the four Post) the ones I have used the most are VR Sounds 3D Pipes and USB/Studio JBF Church Organs. You can hear mp3 demos of my compositions using these two sample collections on my website:

    I look forward to the release of the new pipe organ sound libraries you and the King are currently working on. They will no doubt be much, much better than either the Toolkit or Post Organs for GigaStudio. I will now delete both of these from my nearly full hard drive (to make room for the Bosendorfer!) I expect all your future sound libraries will be absolutely scrupulous in not wasting a single byte of hard drive space!


  7. #7
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Dallas, Texas

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

    Originally posted by DCB:
    I expect all your future sound libraries will be absolutely scrupulous in not wasting a single byte of hard drive space!

    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Holy cow, just buy another drive. They\'re dirt cheap.

  8. #8

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?


    It\'s an honor that you use my samples.

  9. #9

    Re: The Doppelganger of the Grandioso--Post Organs?

    Just in case there was any misunderstanding, I would like to reiterate that IMO the two more recent (\"non-retro\") Post organ sample libraries, i.e. Post Positive and Post Theatre Organ, are both excellent. The positive samples especially are exquisite. I believe they set a standard for future organ sound libraries to follow. If only more organs could be sampled in the same way. This is definitely a case of “watch this space”.

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