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Topic: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

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  1. #1

    PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    How actual velocity levels were recorded for this instrument?

    regards,
    Arch

  2. #2

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    (Sorry, adding missing word here

    How many actual velocity levels were recorded for this instrument?

    regards,
    Arch

  3. #3

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    I\'m sure Michiel will answer this, but it might as well be 16 cuz the 16 layer version plays smoothly & naturally from \'p\' to \'f\'.

  4. #4

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    OK here we go. Just to clear some misunderstandings. Both the PMI GRANDIOSO piano libraries (Bosendorfer 290 Steinway D) have MORE recorded velocity layers than any other piano library on the market today. Period.
    Insinuations that any of the recorded velocity layers are not recorded but batch-processed versions of other (recorded) layers are absurd and indicate that the person(s) making such insinuations have no idea how the PMI libraries are made.
    When you open the PMI Bosendorfer 290 gig in the gigaeditor you get a picture like this:

    You don’t need a PHD in math to count the most obvious there- there are 16 folders of recorded sample layers for all notes and 4 folders for the release of them. Each folder contains different samples. Just open any of the samples with the same note name and compare them in an audio editor and you’ll hear what we’re talking about.
    In the assignment window you can see the 8 layer dry patch. As you can see there are only 5 discrete samples used for these notes. The extra layers were programmed as pseudo-layers where the same sample is used again to create a smoother response. We found out this is vital for the sound and I believe every library in the market today should use this programming technique. It simply uses all of GigaStudios available recources to get the best transition for layer to layer. If a library doesn’t use this technique you can bet your hat the velocity layers crossings are clearly noticeable.
    The 16 layer patches were programmed in the same way; sometimes using 5 sometime 6 discrete samples. The 16 layer patches are even smoother than the 8 layer patches.

    The Steinway D shows a similar picture.

  5. #5

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    Hello Michiel,

    Thanks for sharing your ideas regarding piano sampling. It was interesting to see the editor screenshot. I have one question: Why include as many as 16 recorded velocities if you are using only five or six?

    Thanks,
    Hans

  6. #6

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    Hi Hans,
    The idea is that, given that you have recorded real pianissimo up to real fortissimo, you need better control to overcome the gap in timbre between these samples. Simply programming them side by side leaves you with only ONE filter and ONE amplitude scaling opportunity to get the samples to match near the crossing points.
    Creating pseudo-layers gives you the option of leaving the lowest copy of a sample without any filtering but with its own velocity scaling. The next copy of the sample can have a little bit of filtering applied to make the tone/timbre a little darker so that it sounds more like the next sample in line. In the PMI Bosendorfer it is impossible to detect the different layers and this is partly due to this programming technique.
    We used this technique in both the Steinway and Bosendorfer libraries and I think EVERY piano library should have this technique applied to create a smoother response- giving the pianist more control over the timbre. Let me know if you want me to assist.
    Best Michiel Post

    \\

  7. #7

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    Originally posted by Hans Adamson:
    Hello Michiel,

    Thanks for sharing your ideas regarding piano sampling. It was interesting to see the editor screenshot. I have one question: Why include as many as 16 recorded velocities if you are using only five or six?

    Thanks,
    Hans
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Michiel\'s illustration and explanation refer to a particular 8-layer instrument. I understand that the 16-layer instruments use more than 5-6 separate samples per region.
    A simple test also demonstrates that there are no \"unused\" samples in the Gig file, that is, that all included samples are used by instruments: if I use the Save Limited command with option omit Unreferenced Samples, the file size remains about 1,9 Gb, like the original.

    Maybe I\'m wrong and confused as well... But what the heck, this is a masterpiece library!

    Peter

  8. #8

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    Hello Michiel, Peter,

    I understand the concept of pseudo-layering. I believe Warren Trachtman was using this method on his pianos. I am still not getting the math to add up , though:

    Originally posted by Michiel Post:

    The 16 layer patches were programmed in the same way; sometimes using 5 sometime 6 discrete samples.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">16 velocities x 88 samples = 1408 samples

    6 \"discrete\" layers x 88 samples = 528 samples

    I do not doubt that Michiel has used 1408 samples, or more. I just can\'t read from his post how they are used. Is it me???

    Hans

  9. #9

    Re: PMI Bosendorfer -- how many recorded velocity levels?

    Since no-one else has yet answered Hans\' question (not publicly at least), and since I have just received my copy of the PMI Bosendorfer, I thought I might insert a comment here. I have just spent the last three hours or so playing the Bosendorfer. It is indeed a great sample library IMO. The transitions between the velocity layers are almost completely imperceptible, which is more than you could say about many other sample libraries (including the PMI Steinway). There is also none of the disturbing stereo phasing effect whereby the notes appear to swing from left to right as you switch from one velocity to another (mentioned in another thread about the Bardstown Bosendorfer). Another (perhaps unique) feature of the PMI Bosendorfer is the presence of a \"wet\" version which sounds more like a piano would do from an audience perspective, rather than player perspective.

    The tedious mathematical issues pale in comparison to the quality of the sound. However, I still think total clarity about such things would be valuable, in order to avoid misunderstandings. So here is my (admittedly presumptuous) attempt to set the record straight:

    According to my calculations there are actually about 1050 individual samples in the PMI Bosendorfer. As you can see from above picture of the editor, there are 22 sample folders. If we discount the \"0-sound\" and \"pedal\" folders, there are 20 folders containing piano note sounds. Each of these contains between 42 and 54 samples (most have 52). Only the white keys are used (the Bosendorfer 290 has an extended range down to F0, thus 54 white keys). The black notes (and a few of the white notes for which there are no samples) are produced by pitch shifting. This does not significantly compromise the sound IMO.

    I have looked carefully at how the samples are asigned to the different instruments and layers. I also looked at a few of the samples in a wave editor. Because of the way the samples are named it is not easy to figure out exactly how the programming is done, but my tentative conclusions are as follows:

    There are 5 recorded \"dry\" velocity layers
    There are 11 recorded \"wet\" velocity layers (6 pedal-up and 5 pedal-down)
    There is 1 recorded \"dry\" release sample layer
    There are 3 recorded \"wet\" release sample layers

    The way these 20 sets of samples are used to form the various 8 and 16-layer instruments is quite ingenious and intricate. All I can say is that it works!

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