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Topic: A Public call for reference work (or Bibliography)

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  1. #1

    A Public call for reference work (or Bibliography)

    Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
    Beethoven\'s 5th was written at tempo 109. I slowed my rendition down to around 105. Every famous recording of the 5th, that I could find was between 105 and 109 and was also VERY dynamic, so what are you talking about?
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I found a Dover score for Beet 5, 6 and 7 at a second hand book store and the tempo for the 5 was marked as half note = 108. That\'s smokin\'.

    Dover is known to take popular renditions of PD scores and simply copy and publish. Sometimes they\'ll also take popular recordings and mark the score tempos according to that.

    So it\'s entirely possible that your performance uses a score and reference performances that are based on a popularized method of playing the piece - without the tempo marking following the general interpretation that is considered to be consistent with the time period of Beethoven\'s original work (say, 1807 or so). That\'s not all that uncommon. \"Allegro con brio\" at the time of the more popular scores (say mid 20th century) for this might have been significantly faster than the original interpretation (early 19th c.).

    My reference for \"Pines of Rome\" lasts more than 22 minutes, but the score I\'m using calls for it to be ~20 min. Does 22\' \'and change\' qualify as \"about 20 minutes\"? Well, as it turns out, there happens to be more than one rendition that folks consider \"definitive\" - and you guessed it - the other one comes in right at 20 minutes.

    The same goes for my Barber\'s \"Adagio\" scores, which state the piece should be around 7.8 minutes, but every performance I have (including some arranged for voice) are ALL in excess of 9 minutes. My question now is - is the timing marker from Samuel Barber himself, or was the mark created from a well-known performance? Barber is a \"modern\" composer, and is known to put metronome markings right in his scores. The earlier works are not as apt to drop numbers in, as common parlance of the time had a more \"strict\" and intuitive association with \"word terms\" and tempo.

    This gets into territory where I\'ve seen my composition instructor argue with other professors about the vintage of a particular performance and whether it truly represents the composer\'s or the conductor\'s vision. Quite frankly, it\'s more of an endless loop than arguing over which virtual orchestra is better. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

    So this is my public call-out. I\'d like to hear a snippet of demo contributer\'s reference pieces, just to get a picture of what they were targeting. You don\'t need to post the entire work, but perhaps a 20-30 second snippet of a section (or sections) that indicate a place that your library performs particularly well.

    In case you are concerned, this would fall under \"fair use\" of a copyrighted work, in that the snippets should not be considered a substantial amount of the original work - and we are using the material for purposes of critique - both clauses in the fair use provision.

    [Side Note: This was originally posted in the EW forum, before I realized where I was and expected that my post would be deleted before it was read. So I opted to start a new thread here.]

  2. #2

    Re: A Public call for reference work (or Bibliography)

    It is my understanding, that at one time there were over 30 recordings of the Beethoven 5th by Toscanni and all timed diferently....

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: A Public call for reference work (or Bibliography)

    \"In case you are concerned, this would fall under \"fair use\" of a copyrighted work, in that the snippets should not be considered a substantial amount of the original work - and we are using the material for purposes of critique - both clauses in the fair use provision.\"
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I would defer to Papa Chalk on that, guys. It\'s his responsibility as owner of this board to make that call. If he asked me, I\'d say no way should we be posting ANYTHING here that we don\'t own, in any amount. Case law thus far has not smiled upon internet related fair-use claims. The courts generally define the internet as a broadcast medium, more and more so every day. As such, the posting of works to which you have no performance/publishing rights is also verboten.

    The only thing that is 100% clear would be works which are 100% in the public domain, performed by you. Anything else is a risk, and I would certainly not take it in the current climate.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: A Public call for reference work (or Bibliography)

    BTW, I\'m not saying the intention here isn\'t good, honroable, and within the intention of the fair-use provisions. I\'m saying enforcement is not trending that way...just to be crystal clear about my concern. The reason I\'m rather intimate with this is that PBS has really beefed up their postition on the issue, for the very same reasons I state. Even in educational shows, we are getting written permissions on every single snip of copyright-bound material.

  5. #5

    Re: A Public call for reference work (or Bibliography)

    1) This is hardly PBS, so I don\'t think it stands up as a guiding precendent.

    2) As long as attribution to the original work is made, along with a corresponding disclaimer as to the intent of the example and it\'s auspices under the fair use clause, it should not be a problem.

    3) I spoke to a music attorney about it, and he said that it should not be a concern as long as folks were not claiming the copyrighted work as their own or present a substantial portion of the work that would potentially constitute harm to the commercial distribution of the work.

    If anything, it should broaden the horizons of some of the folks here and might spur them on to select and purchase a few good performances of each piece under scrutiny, and consitute an additional sales opportunity for the perforumances mentioned.

    In the very least, the posters of the demos can name the scores and performances they used as a baseline, and everyone can have the option of going to the local music or CD store and checking it out for themselves.

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