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Topic: PMI BOS 6db gain

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  1. #1

    PMI BOS 6db gain

    The manual says that a 6 db gain is added to pmi samples, which means vel above 112 and below 14 will have no effect.....

    So EXACTLY HOW do you turn the 6 db boost off, to get the full vel range out of the instrument. The WIZARD tool isn\'t exactly obvious!

    Many regards to anyone who can advise this inveterate techno-peasant how to do this!!!!

    (Great sample, BTW, for anyone who hasn\'t tried it.)
    JG
    http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html

  2. #2

    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    By the way, John, (and sorry for the OT), please let me know where you will be transferring your music at mp3.com now that it\'s closing down. I really like your music and I know I could just rip them off the mp3.com site, but as a fellow musician, I wouldn\'t want to do that. I just want to listen to your music every now and then.

    Nhick
    http://nhick.com

  3. #3

    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    By the way, thanks too, Bruce, for that detailed answer. I\'ve been wondering about that too.

    Nhick

  4. #4

    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    Thanks Bruce. Oddly, for a number of the samples in the pmi bos, the wizard shows a 6 db \"boost\" (it\'s checked off) while the mix\\layer window shows a big fat \"0\"!!! I\'m such a t-peasant that I can\'t reconcile this apparent inconsistency. Probably it just isn\'t one, and I don\'t know what I\'m at! It only troubles me because Michael says that a 6 db boost SHOULD be there, and in one place (the wizard) I\'m seeing it, and in another (the mix/layer window) I\'m not! Maybe Michael will chime in here and help me out. I SHOULD email him!

    OT mp3.com. Wow! I had no idea they were self-destructing. I guess that\'s why I\'m stuck at 500k downloads. It\'s like everythings dead up there. No replies to my emails, etc., etc. I wonder whether Cnet is contemplating keeping the likes of folks like me? Anyhow, download as much stuff as you like everybody. It\'s only 128 kps. The real thing is the cd quality stuff, which I\'m going to try to market eventually, eventually, some time......

    JG

  5. #5

    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    Hi John,

    I think you are confusing midi velocity with volume. Increasing the gain in a sample has nothing to do with midi velocity values. The piano will play exactly the same as if the samples were 6dB less, only you won\'t have to turn up the faders on your mixer as much!

    Chris

  6. #6
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    Originally posted by JohnGrant:
    The manual says that a 6 db gain is added to pmi samples, which means vel above 112 and below 14 will have no effect.....

    So EXACTLY HOW do you turn the 6 db boost off, to get the full vel range out of the instrument. The WIZARD tool isn\'t exactly obvious!

    Many regards to anyone who can advise this inveterate techno-peasant how to do this!!!!

    (Great sample, BTW, for anyone who hasn\'t tried it.)
    JG
    http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">OK here you go, step by step:

    Open the instrument in Giga Edit
    In the upper right pane, select (yellow highlight) all regions
    Click the Select lock button (below the velocity pane) until all velocities are selected. The button will be 100% \"red\" at that point.
    Choose the Mix/Layer settings tab
    Next to \"Attenuation\" you\'ll see a checkbox with \"+6db\" above it.
    Uncheck it
    Hit Apply Mix/Layer at the bottom left of that pane
    Save the instrument

    And....you\'re done!!

    One warning: be sure you don\'t accidentally change the attenuation level before hitting apply when you have everything selected. Changing the \"grey\" number to a black number, then hitting save will destroy all of the attenuation programming across the instrument. If you don\'t make a change to a \"greyed\" number, Apply won\'t overwrite the values.

    As a rule, whenever I see the +6 invoked in any sample, I uncheck it. Developers generally use this because percussive instruments especially tend to \"sound\" softer than their steady-state, perhaps normalized brethren. While this isn\'t anything to worry about in most cases, it can make the percussive instrument seem wimpy in comparison, and the phenomenon forces users to turn the steady state instruments WAY down to balance them with the more percussive ones. Then people complain...not understanding that this condition is actually the healthiest possible, and that it\'s indiciative of good, not bad technique.

    But, if you\'re getting constant calls and complaints, it\'s sometimes easier to build percussive envelope instruments with the +6 setting, which essentially provides a little fake compression and raises the level of the percussive instrument by squishing its range slightly.

    However, as most would surmise, it\'s far better to just tweak the levels, and apply compression in the audio domain where its resolution can be higher, and where you\'re actually applying DSP to the signal rather than faking it with MIDI dynamic response.

    In some cases, the programmer may have done his programming \"post +6\" so you have to listen and see whether this is something you really want to do on an instrument by instrument basis. On the piano, I\'m pretty sure you\'ll want to ditch the +6 setting, and compress on the back end if you need it.

    Hope that explains the how and the why...

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    Originally posted by ChrisAxia:
    Hi John,

    I think you are confusing midi velocity with volume. Increasing the gain in a sample has nothing to do with midi velocity values. The piano will play exactly the same as if the samples were 6dB less, only you won\'t have to turn up the faders on your mixer as much!

    Chris
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">They fake it with MIDI, Chris. Giga doesn\'t have any true amplification on the instrument level, only attenuation. It\'s in the docs somewhere, but it\'s not a very commonly known detail.

  8. #8

    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    Hi John/Bruce/Chris,

    The issue I\'m referring to in the PMI Bos290 manual (and other GRANDIOSO pianos) is slightly different.

    Bruce explains the +6 tab in the MIXER section. It behaves exactly like he describes. See the screen shots below on what happens. First you have the Mixer screen with the +6dB bos unchecked. This allows me to apply an attenuation for each region. So I can set the exact level for each voice because each voice can have it\'s own setting of this attenuation.


    Then you see what happens when you click the + 6 dB box. The attenuation value is gone and the box is grey, meaning your previous settings are erased.

    So this function in GigaEdit does not work for general +6 dB gain, unless you have set the gain on the sample level and do not need to adjust it on the program level.

    The +6dB tab I\'m referring to in the PMI Bos290 manual is the general +6 dB tab that is hidden in the PROPERTIES menu when you right-click an instrument in the left instrument browser.


    This is the +6 dB tab that maninpulates the incoming data. It actually \"shifts\" the midi velocity data upwards. So if you play a note at midi velocity value 1 it adds 14 to that and plays a note at midi velocity 15. When you play vel. 2 you will hear 16 etc. This means that you will never play the lowest 10% of the dynamic range.
    In the upper range the +6 dB tab will let you reach the maximum velocity data value 127 when you play at a velocity of 113. All values above vel. 113 will sound as 127. This means you lose the last 10% of the top dynamic range.
    The exact function of this setting is more complex as the actual velocity behaviour of giga is also set by the velocity scaling values in the RESPONSE tab, shown below.

    So the +6dB box in the Instrument Properties is not what it seems. It is not an audio amplifier that adds 6 dB gain to the audio data gain processing. It is in fact a midi modulator that emulates this. And doing this is affects the ***ntion of the dynamic response.
    When you disable the +6 dB tab in the Instrument Properties the expected (or normal) velocity behaviour occurs. But to make the piano louder we used the +6 dB setting and adjusted all other parameters to make the piano response exactly the same as the real piano. There is no need to remove the +6 dB other than explained in the manual.
    When the piano samples are used in orchestral or pop arrangements with a lot of other sampled instruments ...snip...you are advised to turn of the +6 dB tab as it will easily lead to distorting the output.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">This is not the only way to avoid clipping the output stage. You can also lower the midi data volume, or the audio fader in the DSP station mixer window.

  9. #9

    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    Originally posted by Michiel Post:
    ***ntion
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">***ntion should read \"F U N C T I O N\"

  10. #10

    Re: PMI BOS 6db gain

    Well, you learn something new every day! Thanks Bruce & Michiel.

    Chris

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